Discussion:
Configuring service runlevels
(too old to reply)
Marc Chamberlin
2013-04-10 20:57:31 UTC
Permalink
Given that the YaST Runlevel editor is broken (Bug 800514) in
openSuSE12.3, and it appears that the switch-over to systemd is still a
work in progress, my question is this - Is the only workaround, to
automatically starting up services during boot up, is to go in and
manually create the links in the /etc/init.d/rc*.d directories for the
various services one needs? That is going to be a real PITA trying to
figure out by hand the order in which all our services must be started
and stopped. Anyone have another better workaround solution?

BTW - This is the second major bug I have now encountered in trying to
install and use openSuSE12.3. (The first was, and appears it may still
be, Bug 809843 which was a showstopper for me.) Can't say I am very
impressed with this release, and am thinking about dropping back to 12.2
(or perhaps even earlier) for our servers and gateway systems and wait
until 13.x comes out....

Marc....
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Cristian Rodríguez
2013-04-10 21:04:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marc Chamberlin
Is the only workaround, to
automatically starting up services during boot up, is to go in and
manually create the links in the /etc/init.d/rc*.d directories for the
various services one needs?
huh ? what makes you think that is a solution ?

to start service on boot

systemctl enable yourservice

it is that simple, and works.

yast modules will probably be revamped/improved when converted to Ruby
from YCP, that might take a while.

As there are only a handful of souls that speak the YCP language and
some of them even no longer work for SUSE..yast needs such conversion in
order to survive.
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Per Jessen
2013-04-10 21:39:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cristian Rodríguez
Post by Marc Chamberlin
Is the only workaround, to
automatically starting up services during boot up, is to go in and
manually create the links in the /etc/init.d/rc*.d directories for
the various services one needs?
huh ? what makes you think that is a solution ?
to start service on boot
systemctl enable yourservice
it is that simple, and works.
yast modules will probably be revamped/improved when converted to Ruby
from YCP, that might take a while.
As there are only a handful of souls that speak the YCP language and
some of them even no longer work for SUSE..yast needs such conversion
in order to survive.
YCP isn't particularly difficult, anyone who can program will be able to
pick it up. It's more about a lack of developer-/community-interest in
YaST.


/Per
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Andrey Borzenkov
2013-04-11 02:51:24 UTC
Permalink
В Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:39:38 +0200
Post by Per Jessen
YCP isn't particularly difficult, anyone who can program will be able to
pick it up.
Is there any documentation?
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Per Jessen
2013-04-11 06:10:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrey Borzenkov
В Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:39:38 +0200
Post by Per Jessen
YCP isn't particularly difficult, anyone who can program will be able
to pick it up.
Is there any documentation?
During the last 6-8 months, I've spent quite a bit of time looking at
the yast-iscsi module(s), which is all YCP.
Yes, there is documentation out there, but it can be difficult to find,
google will help. There is also stuff like debugging info for YaST
etc.
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Andrey Borzenkov
2013-04-11 06:23:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Per Jessen
Post by Andrey Borzenkov
В Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:39:38 +0200
Post by Per Jessen
YCP isn't particularly difficult, anyone who can program will be able
to pick it up.
Is there any documentation?
During the last 6-8 months, I've spent quite a bit of time looking at
the yast-iscsi module(s), which is all YCP.
Yes, there is documentation out there, but it can be difficult to find,
google will help. There is also stuff like debugging info for YaST
etc.
As you apparently already collected this information may be you
consider making life easier to possible contributors by publishing
these links? What about creating wiki page on opensuse.org?
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Per Jessen
2013-04-11 06:37:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrey Borzenkov
Post by Per Jessen
Post by Andrey Borzenkov
В Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:39:38 +0200
Post by Per Jessen
YCP isn't particularly difficult, anyone who can program will be
able to pick it up.
Is there any documentation?
During the last 6-8 months, I've spent quite a bit of time looking at
the yast-iscsi module(s), which is all YCP.
Yes, there is documentation out there, but it can be difficult to find,
google will help. There is also stuff like debugging info for YaST
etc.
As you apparently already collected this information may be you
consider making life easier to possible contributors by publishing
these links? What about creating wiki page on opensuse.org?
Googling will help you a lot faster:

http://doc.opensuse.org/projects/YaST/SLES11/onefile/yast-onefile.html

http://doc.opensuse.org/projects/YaST/SLES9/tdg/html/ref_ycp.html
http://doc.opensuse.org/projects/YaST/SLES10/tdg/Book-YaSTReference.html
http://doc.opensuse.org/projects/YaST/SLES11/tdg/Book-YaSTReference.html

https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:YaST_debugging
https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:YaST_development
https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:YaST_tutorials_development_in_general
https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:YaST_development_tricks
https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:YaST_team

I don't know how active the mailing lists are:

yast-***@opensuse.org - YaST developer mailinglist.
yast-***@opensuse.org - YaST svn commit mailinglist.
yast-***@opensuse.org - YaST announcement mailinglist.

Thomas Fehr (a YCP parent) has also been very helpful.


/Per
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Cristian Rodríguez
2013-04-11 03:04:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Per Jessen
YCP isn't particularly difficult, anyone who can program will be able to
pick it up. It's more about a lack of developer-/community-interest in
YaST.
Well, that's a moot point now, SUSE is currently working on -->
https://github.com/yast/ycp-killer to get rid of YCP.
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Anton Aylward
2013-04-11 20:01:06 UTC
Permalink
Oh dear!

For the first time in over a week I rebooted my workstation and had a
bit of a problem.

There was a long, long delay. As in I made some coffee, came back and
there was the plymouth screen still there.
I rebooted in recovery mode and watched carefully, later went in to the
journal.

Apr 11 10:47:09 MainBox systemd[1]: Job dev-sda1.swap/start failed with
result 'dependency'.
Apr 11 10:47:09 MainBox systemd[1]: Job dev-sda1.device/start failed
with result 'timeout'.

I'm not sure how significant this is.
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Andrey Borzenkov
2013-04-12 02:55:55 UTC
Permalink
В Thu, 11 Apr 2013 16:01:06 -0400
Post by Anton Aylward
Oh dear!
For the first time in over a week I rebooted my workstation and had a
bit of a problem.
There was a long, long delay. As in I made some coffee, came back and
there was the plymouth screen still there.
I rebooted in recovery mode and watched carefully, later went in to the
journal.
Apr 11 10:47:09 MainBox systemd[1]: Job dev-sda1.swap/start failed with
result 'dependency'.
Apr 11 10:47:09 MainBox systemd[1]: Job dev-sda1.device/start failed
with result 'timeout'.
I'm not sure how significant this is.
Could you run "journalctl --since=... --until=..." for a period
including your full reboot which had these problems and upload e.g. to
susepaste?
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Anton Aylward
2013-04-12 03:05:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrey Borzenkov
В Thu, 11 Apr 2013 16:01:06 -0400
Post by Anton Aylward
Oh dear!
For the first time in over a week I rebooted my workstation and had a
bit of a problem.
There was a long, long delay. As in I made some coffee, came back and
there was the plymouth screen still there.
I rebooted in recovery mode and watched carefully, later went in to the
journal.
Apr 11 10:47:09 MainBox systemd[1]: Job dev-sda1.swap/start failed with
result 'dependency'.
Apr 11 10:47:09 MainBox systemd[1]: Job dev-sda1.device/start failed
with result 'timeout'.
I'm not sure how significant this is.
Could you run "journalctl --since=... --until=..." for a period
including your full reboot which had these problems and upload e.g. to
susepaste?
Yes I did run that, and that's how I spotted the line I quoted.

I've tried rebooting a couple more times and the problem seems to have
gone away.

My best guess is that the /tmp cleaner or something of that ilk cleaned
out or changed some state and something needed rebulding. As I've
mentioned elsewhere, I've had timeout problems problems before.
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Anton Aylward
2013-04-10 21:51:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cristian Rodríguez
yast modules will probably be revamped/improved when converted to Ruby
from YCP, that might take a while.
As there are only a handful of souls that speak the YCP language and
some of them even no longer work for SUSE..yast needs such conversion in
order to survive.
If anything, THAT is the bug - that the one thing which distinguished
openSuse from other distributions, namely YAST, is unmaintainable!
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John Andersen
2013-04-10 23:23:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Aylward
Post by Cristian Rodríguez
yast modules will probably be revamped/improved when converted to Ruby
from YCP, that might take a while.
As there are only a handful of souls that speak the YCP language and
some of them even no longer work for SUSE..yast needs such conversion in
order to survive.
If anything, THAT is the bug - that the one thing which distinguished
openSuse from other distributions, namely YAST, is unmaintainable!
This!
Yast is a standout product, and when I hate to see it replaced by a bunch
of CLI utilities who's name you can never remember is a shame.
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Cristian Rodríguez
2013-04-10 23:34:45 UTC
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Post by John Andersen
This!
Yast is a standout product, and when I hate to see it replaced by a bunch
of CLI utilities who's name you can never remember is a shame.
Yast is not getting replaced by command line tools, how to do a
particular task in the command line while Yast problems get sorted out
is what is suggested here.
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Carlos E. R.
2013-04-10 21:54:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cristian Rodríguez
Post by Marc Chamberlin
Is the only workaround, to
automatically starting up services during boot up, is to go in and
manually create the links in the /etc/init.d/rc*.d directories for the
various services one needs?
huh ? what makes you think that is a solution ?
No, that never was a solution, not even in pure systemv times. Maybe in
early times, later with the makefile approach it would fail completely.
Post by Cristian Rodríguez
to start service on boot
systemctl enable yourservice
it is that simple, and works.
Aparently, some people report that it doesn't, or not for all services; I
think those that do not have systemd native files fail.

Instead, they have to use:

chkconfig yourservice on


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(from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar)
Cristian Rodríguez
2013-04-10 22:04:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos E. R.
Post by Cristian Rodríguez
to start service on boot
systemctl enable yourservice
it is that simple, and works.
Aparently, some people report that it doesn't, or not for all services;
I think those that do not have systemd native files fail.
chkconfig yourservice on
Yes, there are services where "enable" is not an option, as well ones
where "disable" is also not an option.. the right instruction is "mask"
in such cases.

Do you know which services exactly cannot be enabled with systemctl ?
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Carlos E. R.
2013-04-10 22:54:29 UTC
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Post by Carlos E. R.
chkconfig yourservice on
Yes, there are services where "enable" is not an option, as well ones where
"disable" is also not an option.. the right instruction is "mask" in such
cases.
Do you know which services exactly cannot be enabled with systemctl ?
No, I have not bothered to remember them. I mean, I have not considered
making a list, yet. The reports come often in the forums, and there is no
clear conclusion.

For example this one:
<http://forums.opensuse.org/showthread.php?t=485284>, the OP complains
about "nfs or xinetd or ddclient".



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Carlos E. R.
2013-04-11 00:09:34 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Carlos E. R.
Post by Cristian Rodríguez
Do you know which services exactly cannot be enabled with systemctl ?
No, I have not bothered to remember them. I mean, I have not considered
making a list, yet. The reports come often in the forums, and there is no
clear conclusion.
<http://forums.opensuse.org/showthread.php?t=485284>, the OP complains
about "nfs or xinetd or ddclient".
A new one: <http://forums.opensuse.org/showthread.php?t=485734>

- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
(from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar)

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Marc Chamberlin
2013-04-11 00:06:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cristian Rodríguez
Post by Marc Chamberlin
Is the only workaround, to
automatically starting up services during boot up, is to go in and
manually create the links in the /etc/init.d/rc*.d directories for the
various services one needs?
huh ? what makes you think that is a solution ?
Wow, had no idea I was going to create such a firestorm of replies!!!

Why do I think this is a solution? Because one of the replies (Comment
#8) in Bug #800514 implied that it might be. And I tried it for the
dhcpd service and it worked... Then I realized that this was going to be
a difficult workaround approach when it came to trying to figure out the
order in which services need to be started and stopped (which is info
that I discovered is embedded in the names of the links in the various
rc*.d directories...) Hence I asked and stated what I had tried....
Post by Cristian Rodríguez
to start service on boot
systemctl enable yourservice
Thanks, I will give that a try again... I actually did see this command
mentioned in Bug #800514 and gave it a shot on one of our services, and
it failed for some reason. I will try to revisit it and see if I can
recreate it, (I think it was for named) but it may have been an
interaction with the other bug I mentioned about supporting dual NICs on
a gateway. Not being familiar with this command, or systemd in general,
I set it aside and continued to try an grok the situation and look for
other solutions.
Post by Cristian Rodríguez
it is that simple, and works.
The learning curve is sometimes very steep and there are lots of "magic"
commands that not everyone is familiar with. That is why having good
GUI's, that act as guides to help us poor uneducated users solve such
problems, is so important. IMHO! Then we wouldn't have to bother the
experts with our dumb questions. Having a sea of command line commands
with a universe of options is wonderful for all the advance Linux gurus
in the world, but for those of us who are learning the ropes, it is not
always easy to find these golden nuggets on our own or discover/grok a
new command such as systemctl.... Please do not assume that someone who
is asking questions and struggling with his/her system is as
knowledgeable about the subject, as you are...
Post by Cristian Rodríguez
yast modules will probably be revamped/improved when converted to Ruby
from YCP, that might take a while.
As there are only a handful of souls that speak the YCP language and
some of them even no longer work for SUSE..yast needs such conversion
in order to survive.
I look forward to the day when a new GUI presents itself in the openSuSE
world. In the meantime, don't be surprised if/when I ask "dumb"
questions on how to do something that YaST was once able to do for me.
Getting openSuSE12.3 up an running has become a frustrating experience
for us. Our servers and gateway systems were running under 11.4 for a
long time, but with some growing discomfort, so we decided it was time
to try an upgrade... It has NOT proven to be an easy transition...

Marc...
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Cristian Rodríguez
2013-04-11 00:32:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marc Chamberlin
I look forward to the day when a new GUI presents itself in the openSuSE
world.
We are not talking about a new GUI yet ;-) just converting the existing
code to language that more programmers understand or are willing to
learn. THEN something new might come up, who knows..


In the meantime, don't be surprised if/when I ask "dumb"
Post by Marc Chamberlin
questions on how to do something that YaST was once able to do for me.
Getting openSuSE12.3 up an running has become a frustrating experience
for us.
I understand, unfortunately Yast is showing up its age and keeping it
current with the underlying system changes is a task that is in need of
manpower at the moment.
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Carlos E. R.
2013-04-11 00:42:51 UTC
Permalink
I understand, unfortunately Yast is showing up its age and keeping it current
with the underlying system changes is a task that is in need of manpower at
the moment.
Maybe manpower should be shifted from doing new features to keeping up
yast instead.

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(from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar)
Cristian Rodríguez
2013-04-11 00:55:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos E. R.
Maybe manpower should be shifted from doing new features to keeping up
yast instead.
Generally,people work in what they want or what they know how to do, it
is not a matter of waving the magic wand and suddenly developers go in
droves to learn YCP and fix YAST.
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Carlos E. R.
2013-04-11 02:01:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos E. R.
Maybe manpower should be shifted from doing new features to keeping up
yast instead.
Generally,people work in what they want or what they know how to do, it is
not a matter of waving the magic wand and suddenly developers go in droves to
learn YCP and fix YAST.
Yes, and I have other times stated my opinion that developers should do
what has to be done (within their skills), not what they prefer to do.

Same as when I volunteer to do FOSS translations I do what is available.
There is a pool of jobs and I pick one.

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Carlos E. R.
(from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar)
mike
2013-04-11 00:44:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cristian Rodríguez
Post by Marc Chamberlin
questions on how to do something that YaST was once able to do for me.
Getting openSuSE12.3 up an running has become a frustrating experience
for us.
I understand, unfortunately Yast is showing up its age and keeping it
current with the underlying system changes is a task that is in need of
manpower at the moment.
Showing it's age? I still remember using Yast1 and all the complaining and
moaning that came about when the switch was made to Yast2. It was an
interesting time.

Mike
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Carlos E. R.
2013-04-11 00:57:59 UTC
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Post by mike
Showing it's age? I still remember using Yast1 and all the complaining and
moaning that came about when the switch was made to Yast2. It was an
interesting time.
Mmm.

Yast2 was slower than yast1, and did not work in many cases. It took a
year or two till it was really usable.

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Carlos E. R.
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Anton Aylward
2013-04-11 01:52:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marc Chamberlin
Post by Cristian Rodríguez
it is that simple, and works.
The learning curve is sometimes very steep and there are lots of "magic"
commands that not everyone is familiar with.
I'd say the opposite.

The big step is letting go of the old way of doing things.

There's only really the one command - we've covered that.

The trick is to think in terms of the dependency tree.
And I mentioned the command for visualising that.
Post by Marc Chamberlin
That is why having good
GUI's, that act as guides to help us poor uneducated users solve such
problems, is so important. IMHO! Then we wouldn't have to bother the
experts with our dumb questions.
HA!
All the evidence is to the contrary!
Post by Marc Chamberlin
Having a sea of command line commands
with a universe of options is wonderful for all the advance Linux gurus
in the world, but for those of us who are learning the ropes, it is not
always easy to find these golden nuggets on our own or discover/grok a
new command such as systemctl....
What's this about the see? There aren't many commands; compared to
tracing though wall the intricacies of shell scripts, includes, defined
functions, external commands, then the systemd way of working is the
joyous simplicity. If this had been thought of first we'd never have
dreamt of something as awkward as sysvinit.

Please disabuse yourself of this 'sea of commands' notion and please
disabuse yourself of the idea that systemctl was difficult to find.
Well perhaps it was since it is just the one think. Oh, right, there's
a GUI version as well. Two things. And the log viewer. Three.

As for finding things in the 'sea' that is /usr/bin - DON'T!

I keep telling you guys out there in the suse world - use the 'apropos'
command. A few times. "apropos systemd" will refer you to 30 man pages
which will let you learn about the innards and operation of systemd.
Does that seem a lot? Well think how many you need to read to learn
about file systems - access control, the various standards, how udev
works and more. In true UNIX tradition it has been broken down on the
'each thing does one thing' principle.

And really, of those 30 how many are commands?


systemctl (1) - Control the systemd system and service manager

This is the one you need to know

systemd (1) - systemd System and Service Manager

You never invoke that, the init process starts it

systemd-ask-password (1) - Query the user for a system password

Again, you never run that; the system uses it when it needs
your input

systemd-cat (1) - Connect a pipeline or programs output with the journal

That's the equivalent of "logger(1) for when you're writing
control scripts, if ever

systemd-cgls (1) - Recursively show control group contents

A debugging & reporting tool
Only relevant if you are using the control group mechanism
(which pre-dated systemd) to divide up machine resources, for
example to virtual machines or tasks.


systemd-cgtop (1) - Show top control groups by their resource usage

See note above.
like the top(1) command but for the groups

systemd-journalctl (1) - Query the systemd journal

This you probably do need.
The 'journal' is a 'replacement' for syslog that uses a binary
format rather than plain text. This is the viewer.

systemd-loginctl (1) - Control the systemd login manager

Does something we should have had long ago - manage logins

Try this command:
systemctl help systemd-logind.service
then
systemctl status systemd-logind.service


systemd-machine-id-setup (1) - Initialize the machine ID in /etc/machine-id
systemd-notify (1) - Notify init system about start-up completion and
other daemon status changes

These are 'internal' to the operation

systemd-nspawn (1) - Spawn a namespace container for debugging,
testing and building

This is a mechanism for doing the init of chroot'd subsystems
Either you need to know how to use it 'cos you're setting those
up, or you don't. I suspect you don't. I don't.


So what about the others?
The are man-5 or man-8, that is definition of file types and purposes.
About as relevant as the on-disk structures involved with LVM or the
various file system types and superblock layouts. Essential to the
operation but ...


What's more important is understanding the why and wherefore of systemd.
The best way to do that, IMHO, is to read Lennart's Blog.
There's a lot of it and it warrants reading over and over as your
understanding grows. Don't expect to understand it all, and certainly
not part XII, immediately. Heck, I'm still learning from what in
systemctl(1)!

Some of what parts of this thread have touched n Lennart covers in
http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/three-levels-of-off.html
Please note the date.
Please not that its also the only useful mention of symlinking there.
Its sort of 'kill with extreme prejudice' for the job.
(Perhaps the systemctl command needs 'mask' option.)

I'd particularly bring to your attention
http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/the-biggest-myths.html
<quote>
Myth: systemd is difficult.

This also is entire non-sense. A systemd platform is actually much
simpler than traditional Linuxes because it unifies system objects and
their dependencies as systemd units. The configuration file language is
very simple, and redundant configuration files we got rid of. We provide
uniform tools for much of the configuration of the system. The system is
much less conglomerate than traditional Linuxes are. We also have pretty
comprehensive documentation (all linked from the homepage) about pretty
much every detail of systemd, and this not only covers admin/user-facing
interfaces, but also developer APIs.

systemd certainly comes with a learning curve. Everything does. However,
we like to believe that it is actually simpler to understand systemd
than a Shell-based boot for most people. Surprised we say that? Well, as
it turns out, Shell is not a pretty language to learn, it's syntax is
arcane and complex. systemd unit files are substantially easier to
understand, they do not expose a programming language, but are simple
and declarative by nature. That all said, if you are experienced in
shell, then yes, adopting systemd will take a bit of learning.

To make learning easy we tried hard to provide the maximum compatibility
to previous solutions. But not only that, on many distributions you'll
find that some of the traditional tools will now even tell you -- while
executing what you are asking for -- how you could do it with the newer
tools instead, in a possibly nicer way.

Anyway, the take-away is probably that systemd is probably as simple as
such a system can be, and that we try hard to make it easy to learn. But
yes, if you know sysvinit then adopting systemd will require a bit
learning, but quite frankly if you mastered sysvinit, then systemd
should be easy for you.
</quote>




Personally I was glad to get rid of the mess that sysvinit had become.
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Cristian Rodríguez
2013-04-11 02:27:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Aylward
systemd-loginctl (1) - Control the systemd login manager
Does something we should have had long ago - manage logins
yes, and most desktop envs already interface with it.
Post by Anton Aylward
Some of what parts of this thread have touched n Lennart covers in
http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/three-levels-of-off.html
Please note the date.
Please not that its also the only useful mention of symlinking there.
Its sort of 'kill with extreme prejudice' for the job.
(Perhaps the systemctl command needs 'mask' option.)
"mask" is of course already implemented.. the date is mostly irrelevant
as the systemctl *commands* are part of the "stability promise" so that
instructions still hold valid, the output of this program is however not
part of that promise (with exception of "show" which is
machine-parseable) other programs are supposed to interact with
systemd's components via D-BUS and/or the C/Python/whatever API. (YAST
falls in this category)
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Anton Aylward
2013-04-11 12:34:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cristian Rodríguez
the date is mostly irrelevant
as the systemctl *commands* are part of the "stability promise" so that
instructions still hold valid,
That's true, but its not why I mentioned the date of the posting.

I mentioned it because I wanted to emphasise that this information has
been available for public consumption for a long time.

I don't want to be though of as an unhelpful bigot who keeps yelling
'RTFM" and "Go Google". heck, I missed that reference to 'mask' when
paging though the systemctl man page, so yes, despite all rumours to the
contrary I'm as fallible as the rest of the people here.
Perhaps I've been RTFM too long and trying to jam in some more is
causing back-pressure resistance ... that, sclerosis of the eyeballs or
.. what was that word beginning with "A that you mentioned, Patric?

But I'm battling on, so I'm only guilty of "oh, I missed that".

Its not as if that series - 'systemd for sysadmins' - is hard to find.
Or maybe its that I've got a Fedora system bumming around here somewhere
and systemd "just worked" there. Well they don't have Yast so I never
tried using yast and went straight to systemctl so when I came to
openSUSE and systemd I didn't use Yast for systemd things either.

Despite that, I feel more "at home" with openSUSE than with Fedora.


Lets face it, Lennart has done a good job. Over my career I've seen
some ace coders, but few, very few of them, document what they do. I
don't mean just the in-line comments and the basic command line options,
but document their design decisions point, produce the documentation
about application, produce all the support that Lennart has done.

Not only is systemd more coherent than the collection of scripts that
made up sysvinit (and its BSD and Solaris counterparts), its more
thoroughly documented and those documents are easier to find.

One reason I quoted the "Myths" part of the series was that it seems
some mis-information ("myths") it seems will not die.
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Linda Walsh
2013-04-11 21:58:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Aylward
Post by Marc Chamberlin
Post by Cristian Rodríguez
it is that simple, and works.
The learning curve is sometimes very steep and there are lots of "magic"
commands that not everyone is familiar with.
I'd say the opposite.
Post by Marc Chamberlin
Having a sea of command line commands
What's this about the see? There aren't many commands;
See "Options" and "Specifiers" (table)

Each of those command you mentioned below also take multiple options

most options take text inputs of other files you must create. The
entire skeleton of systemd files needs to be created and understood
to fit a service in.

I would point out that the suse implementors believe it impossible to
create backwards compatible systemd files to *allow* the *option* of
booting from disk and have separate root and /usr file systems.

That is trivial in sysVinit scripts. If the learning curve in systemd
is not so steep, why wasn't anyone in SuSE able to figure this out
before rolling 12.3?

I'd say the results speak for themselves about how easy it is to get things
right in systemd.

NOTE: that doesn't mean the end product might not be better
than what you have in sysVinit -- but things that handle alot more
situations and are more comprehensive are almost always
more difficult to configure in the first place.
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Anton Aylward
2013-04-12 00:13:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Walsh
I would point out that the suse implementors believe it impossible to
create backwards compatible systemd files to *allow* the *option* of
booting from disk and have separate root and /usr file systems.
Lennart points out a number of things.

First, he mentions that it's not systemd that introduced the issue of
/usr being needed early on in the boot-init sequence, but that its
something which has come about over the years.

Second, he points out that there is an option with systemd to allow for
separate / and /usr BUT ONLY IF YOU TAKE MEASURES TO GET OVER THOSE
OTHER PROBLEMS THAT EXIST ANYWAY.

One way he suggests is to have separate / and /usr and them modify the
initrd to load both. Not something that is difficult, just something
that you need to actually do.
Post by Linda Walsh
That is trivial in sysVinit scripts. If the learning curve in systemd
is not so steep, why wasn't anyone in SuSE able to figure this out
before rolling 12.3?
I'd say the results speak for themselves about how easy it is to get things
right in systemd.
Ah, sorry, I believe that its better to, as the proverb goes, "light a
candle than curse the darkness". As far as I can see the people who
have problems with systemd are the ... well "unbelievers", the people
who don't want to listen, to research. The people who are again it from
the get-go. They perpetuate various myths and repeat misinformation.

That being said, Linda, you do have a point that the openSUSE packagers
have not done a good job. I've pointed out that I had experience with
systemd on Fedora before dealing with it openSuse. Because of that I
never tried to use Yast to do systemd stuff. And yes, I had a system
set up with / and /usr separate. I also ran openSuse 12.2 under systemd
with / and /usr separate. I can't recall what I did so it was obviously
not a big deal. The only reason I'm not running this 12.3 with them
separate is that I'm experimenting with an all-in-one-BtrFS. The
problems I'm having might be more to do with that since they seem to be
disk/fs related.
Post by Linda Walsh
NOTE: that doesn't mean the end product might not be better
than what you have in sysVinit -- but things that handle alot more
situations and are more comprehensive are almost always
more difficult to configure in the first place.
The complexity of systemd is a lot less than that of sysvinit.
Please don't confuse complexity with volume. The number of "config"
files in systemd, files that specify targets and services, is quite
large. This is because systemd is following the old adage that Tom Duff
stated: "Each thing does one thing, only one thing and does it well".
Each "config" file under /etc/systemd specifies just one activity in the
dependency tree.

The whole point is that the old sysvinit did not make a lot of things
like dependencies explicit and could get itself into paradoxical
situations.

If you find systemd difficult to configure then I can see that you may
be falling into a couple of traps.

The first is that you're not looking at it from the POV of the
dependency tree. This is understandable if you still have sysvinit
convictions since sysvinit doesn't make its dependencies clear - that's
because the only dependency is sequential. The only cure for this is to
to let go of the sysvinit approach, flush it from your mind.

The second is that you think that you need to configure everything.
I've seen a few posts that imply that. This is no more true for systemd
that it was for sysvinit. Its comes configured for the baseline case.
You may need to customise some things. I did on one server. What you
might have to do is so radically different from what you might have to
do with sysvinit that there is little congruence and the tools and
vision are quite different.

Let me illustrate that.
I converted a server from sysvinit to systemd and DNS stopped working.
The server was the local server and used one of the tables at
http://pgl.yoyo.org/ locally to stop adverts being visible in web pages
and email. It took a long time to load.

Under sysvinit the relevant script runs to completion.
Under systemd the dispatcher times out; it thinks the job has hung and
kills it, so the named never starts. It took me a while to figure out
what was going on. Thankfully this was on a Mageia system, and they
don't have a system manager anywhere as capable as Yast, so I wasn't
tempted to waste time trying to solve this with Yast :-)

As Lennart says:
<quote
src="http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/Incompatibilities">
Timeouts apply to all init script operations in systemd. While on SysV
systems a hanging init script could freeze the system on systemd all
init script operations are subject to a timeout of 5min.
</quote>

As I said, the problems people seem to have with systemd seem to come
from expecting it to behave like sysvinit. It won't, it doesn't, and
there for Yast as it stands cannot be used to to manage it.

As I said, since I learnt systemd on systems without Yast, I don't have
a problem with systemd since I don't expect to use Yast to manage it.
But openSuse has always been my preferred distribution, so I'm
disappointed that Yast isn't keeping up and I'd disheartened that so
many people are blaming systemd for things that have nothing to do with
systemd, like the /usr issue.

quote
src="http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/separate-usr-is-broken">
Most of the failures you will experience with /usr split off and not
pre-mounted in the initramfs are graceful failures: they won't become
directly visible, however certain features become unavailable due to
these failures. Quite a number of programs these days hook themselves
into the early boot process at various stages. A popular way to do this
is for example via udev rules. The binaries called from these rules are
sometimes located on /usr/bin, or link against libraries in /usr/lib, or
use data files from /usr/share. If these rules fail udev will proceed
with the next one, however later on applications will then not properly
detect these udev devices or features of these devices. Here's a short,
very in-comprehensive list of software we are aware of that currently
are not able to provide the full set of functionality when /usr is split
off and not pre-mounted at boot: udev-pci-db/udev-usb-db and all rules
depending on this (using the PCI/USB database in /usr/share),
PulseAudio, NetworkManager, ModemManager, udisks, libatasmart,
usb_modeswitch, gnome-color-manager, usbmuxd, ALSA, D-Bus, CUPS,
Plymouth, LVM, hplip, multipath, Argyll, VMWare, the locale logic of
most programs and a lot of other stuff.
</quote>

Perhaps you recognise some of those from ussies that have come up on
this list?
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Greg Freemyer
2013-04-12 01:00:11 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Anton Aylward
Post by Anton Aylward
I also ran openSuse 12.2 under systemd
with / and /usr separate. I can't recall what I did so it was obviously
not a big deal.
Anton,

That's because you didn't have to do anything. opensuse packagers
update the initrd package to mount /usr prior to turning control over
to the following boot sequence. Once that was in place, the packagers
have assumed that /usr will be mounted prior to any systemd stuff
running, so they have been moving binaries during boot off of / and to
/usr.

For most of us that just means the old "sudo /sbin/*" commands now
often need to be "sudo /usr/sbin/*". I find it annoying but not a
huge issue.

Linda on the other hand apparently has her servers setup not to use
initrd at all. Thus a configuration she has used for years is no
longer supported. I don't know if systemd was involved in the
decision for opensuse with split / and /usr to require initrd. It
doesn't really matter to me, I'll just use initrd with my openSUSE
systems.

Greg
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Anton Aylward
2013-04-12 01:38:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Freemyer
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Anton Aylward
Post by Anton Aylward
I also ran openSuse 12.2 under systemd
with / and /usr separate. I can't recall what I did so it was obviously
not a big deal.
Anton,
That's because you didn't have to do anything. opensuse packagers
update the initrd package to mount /usr prior to turning control over
to the following boot sequence. Once that was in place, the packagers
have assumed that /usr will be mounted prior to any systemd stuff
running, so they have been moving binaries during boot off of / and to
/usr.
A, you mean this
http://lizards.opensuse.org/2011/08/03/mounting-usr-in-the-initrd/
Post by Greg Freemyer
Linda on the other hand apparently has her servers setup not to use
initrd at all.
I recall one of Lennart's articles discusses using systemd without initrd.
Post by Greg Freemyer
Thus a configuration she has used for years is no
longer supported. I don't know if systemd was involved in the
decision for opensuse with split / and /usr to require initrd.
Apparently not.
It may have been the 'last straw....' but the motivation was there and
as has been pointed out elsewhere, many other non-Linux systems had
already been though both that and the bin-merge.
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Cristian Rodríguez
2013-04-12 02:16:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Aylward
I recall one of Lennart's articles discusses using systemd without initrd.
An initrd has always been required, it happends that now (and certainly
in the future) systems without initrds will fail to boot.

Several critical parts of the startup sequence will be driven by systemd
from the initrd in future openSUSE incarnations.
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Anton Aylward
2013-04-12 02:55:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cristian Rodríguez
Post by Anton Aylward
I recall one of Lennart's articles discusses using systemd without initrd.
An initrd has always been required, it happends that now (and certainly
in the future) systems without initrds will fail to boot.
Several critical parts of the startup sequence will be driven by systemd
from the initrd in future openSUSE incarnations.
Please see item #2 at
http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/Optimizations

<quote>
Consider bypassing the initrd, if you use one. On Fedora, make sure to
install the OS on a plain disk without encryption, and without
LVM/RAID/... (encrypted /home is fine) when doing this. Then, simply
edit grub.conf and remove the initrd from your configuration, and change
the root= kernel command line parameter so that it uses kernel device
names instead of UUIDs, i.e. "root=sda5" or what is appropriate for your
system. Also specify the root FS type with "rootfstype=ext4" (or as
appropriate). Note that using kernel devices names is not really that
nice if you have multiple hard disks, but if you are doing this for a
laptop (i.e. with a single hdd), this should be fine. Note that you
shouldn't need to rebuild your kernel in order to bypass the initrd.
Distribution kernels (at least Fedora's) work fine with and without
initrd, and systemd supports both ways to be started.
</quote>

He's using Fedora, but I can't see why this should not work with openSuse.

Perhaps I'll try it.
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Linda Walsh
2013-04-12 13:13:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Aylward
Please see item #2 at
http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/Optimizations
He's using Fedora, but I can't see why this should not work with openSuse.
Perhaps I'll try it.
----
But that's for fast, optimized booting. SuSE doesn't support users doing
anything like direct-from-disk boots, and like you said, its for
fedora... not suse, SuSE is working to prevent such optimizations
by disabling boot if you don't use their initrd.

SuSE has said that other distros are all going this way -- but it seems
they can support direct disk booting. So why do such optimizations work
on RH/Fedora and other standard systems, but not SuSE?
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Linda Walsh
2013-04-12 03:43:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cristian Rodríguez
Post by Anton Aylward
I recall one of Lennart's articles discusses using systemd without initrd.
An initrd has always been required, it happends that now (and certainly
in the future) systems without initrds will fail to boot.
Several critical parts of the startup sequence will be driven by systemd
from the initrd in future openSUSE incarnations.
---
So systemd will be on initrd?

What critical parts?
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Linda Walsh
2013-04-12 01:59:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Freemyer
Linda on the other hand apparently has her servers setup not to use
initrd at all. Thus a configuration she has used for years is no
longer supported.
----
The reason it is no longer supported is that they didn't
know how to do it with systemd. As for the other reasons besides systemd
to merge, I've yet to read any that tell why the following would not
have worked equally well yet caused no backwards incompatibility:

Leave binaries needed to boot to single-user (1) on root.
Put libraries as needed to support 1 on root.
Put symlinks (if desired? why? PATH not working?) in /usr/bin, /usr/sbin.

As it is now, SuSE has violated a basic sys-admin no-no. Never rely on or
install links from a mounted fs to another, UNLESS that 'fs' has to be mounted
in order for the 1st to be mounted -- i.e. /usr-> / would be ok, because you can't
mount the 'usr' fs without the root-dir "/" to mount it on.

But nearly all sys admins would heavily frown on "forward links" (links
from a fs to a fs that may not be mounted) as bad practice.
Doing the latter introduces 2 points of failure -- rootfs and usr.

Putting all of usr on /rootfs nearly does the same thing, as the reason
for a small root was to have less on it needing updating.
Post by Greg Freemyer
I'll just use initrd with my openSUSE systems.
----
If you don't mind closing your eyes at init time, that's great.
I look at nearly every boot to see what's changed (especially when a install
a new kernel).

Did any verify booting to a serial console?

That's what drove me to do my own boot because I couldn't easily debug anything
on the initrd. It would turn off my console display but never come up on the serial
line. When I did get the initrd method to work -- it still turned off the display
until the first 'login' prompt -- which I think means it never switched to the
graphics
display -- likely because, at the time, my card wasn't supported -- now it is,
but it
defaults to half a screen of text at the top. The alternative, which I have
used is
132x50 BIOS VGA mode, w/scroll done in HW, not in a SW frame buffer.

I.e. -- all this wasn't just ONLY about separate / and /usr, but also
supporting serial consoles and native HW -- which I've been trying to keep
supported, w/o much support. So I just have to wait until the Corporate issue
comes out and they deal with not booting with only a desktop in mind (all of the
arguments involving merging /usr and / involved a desktop -- as they involved
loading
'X' which lives in /usr.

Also, it's not just about / and /usr, but also /usr/share --- at least a few
current booting progs make use of it, and the same arguments used for /usr can be
used for /usr/share (where do you load your fonts from?) My /usr/share is
a 3rd partition that is located on a 4th, /home, which requires lvm & udev...
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Anton Aylward
2013-04-12 02:59:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Walsh
Post by Greg Freemyer
Linda on the other hand apparently has her servers setup not to use
initrd at all. Thus a configuration she has used for years is no
longer supported.
----
The reason it is no longer supported is that they didn't
know how to do it with systemd.
Not so.

Linda, I've just replied to Cristian on this pointing out item #2
http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/Optimizations
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Per Jessen
2013-04-12 06:23:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Walsh
Post by Greg Freemyer
I'll just use initrd with my openSUSE systems.
Ditto - it's been years and years since I've used a monolithic kernel.
Post by Linda Walsh
----
If you don't mind closing your eyes at init time, that's great.
I look at nearly every boot to see what's changed (especially when a
install a new kernel).
For new systems, I also keep an eye on the console, using an initrd
doesn't prevent that?
Post by Linda Walsh
Did any verify booting to a serial console?
Sure, when I'm testing, I virtually always have a serial console
attached.
Post by Linda Walsh
When I did get the initrd method to work -- it still turned off
the display until the first 'login' prompt
This is a boot option - used to be called "splash", it might have
changed, but I generally remove it.
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Linda Walsh
2013-04-12 19:00:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Per Jessen
This is a boot option - used to be called "splash", it might have
changed, but I generally remove it.
---
No splash is the graphics... nosplash gives me the blank screen,
or recently with newest kernels (3.7 and later) it will give me
a half a screen of scrolled output in the upper half of the screen.

Um.. you call that splash? I call it messed up output... you say half dozen,
I say 6?

;-)

It tries to load a frame buffer on my crap, on-board, video card which, with
VGA compatibility, doesn't do so well and can, at best do 1280x1024 in 32 bit
(on a 16:9 display that came with it! ;-)); To run in 1920x1080 it needs to
drop down to 16bit color). It wasn't meant to do graphics. It's outfitted to
be run as a server. Same CPU does go in my desktop but there it has graphics
(but not much disk space).

Only in 12.3 and later have I gotten the half screen -- but that's partly
because my card now has a kernel adapter that matches it -- I don't know
what mode the half-screen is...maybe
it's trying 1920x1080 in 32 bit to match the monitor? Just a guess..

I try not to boot in a graphics or framebuffer mode, usually. It eats memory
for a console that isn't going to be used very often.

That's what you get when I boot from initrd or if I let it set my console
font: a frame buffer that runs slowly with no HW acceleration.
Vs.
Running in VGA text mode, and it uses HW scrolling
@ about 10X the speed (not that either is readable in any detail, but the
frame buffer scroll creates a motion blur as a it scrolls up on my screen, whereas
the HW scroll does not , though it goes by too fast for anything other than
catching anomalies or errors.

It doesn't have to switch mode so the graphics monitor never loses sync --
so no missed output during a mode switch.
Scrolling is offloaded to the video controller. If it stayed in VGA mode,
it wouldn't need to waste memory allocating a frame buffer nor waste
cpu resources doing the software scrolling that a frame buffer requires
(not that it's alot of memory or cpu, but it's still wasted).
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Per Jessen
2013-04-12 20:15:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Walsh
It tries to load a frame buffer on my crap, on-board, video card
which, with VGA compatibility, doesn't do so well and can, at best do
1280x1024 in 32 bit
(on a 16:9 display that came with it! ;-)); To run in 1920x1080 it needs to
drop down to 16bit color). It wasn't meant to do graphics. It's
outfitted to be run as a server. Same CPU does go in my desktop but
there it has graphics (but not much disk space).
You can probably avoid all of this by using vga=normal or one of those.
A monitor that will fit in a 19" rack rarely does more than 1280x1024
anyway.
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Linda Walsh
2013-04-12 22:28:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Per Jessen
You can probably avoid all of this by using vga=normal or one of those.
A monitor that will fit in a 19" rack rarely does more than 1280x1024
anyway.
----
It came w/the system... not a rack system -- deskside.
I use vga=0x30A...
Oops.. my comments in lilo.conf says thats 132x43 not 132x50...
# modes 0x30A 132x43
# 0x31b - 1280x1024x32
# 0x31c, 0x31d - 1600x1200x16
----
So have that in the boot config, but it's when it first comes up and hits
...kbd (fbset_params = null, in fbset, so it exits).
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Anton Aylward
2013-04-12 23:58:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Walsh
why? PATH not working?
Well, on the one hand:
<quote src="man page for execcv">
Special semantics for execlp() and execvp()
The execlp(), execvp(), and execvpe() functions duplicate the
actions of the shell in searching for an executable file if the
specified filename does not contain a slash (/) character.
The file is sought in the colon-separated list of directory
pathnames specified in the PATH environment variable.
</quote>

and on the other there is the execve(2) system call that does not have
the wrapper that the above form and needs an absolute path name.

The question is "how minimalist do you want to be?"

Where do you think the "p" variants live - what library?
In fact what dynamic library?

You're a person that has stripped things down on your system.
What do you think the the smallest "init" or init-replacement could be
with the least other stuff running, that is without having to start up
the shell and all the stuff that drags in?
--
If you need to be told what your values are
the implication is that you don't hold them right now.

If you hold your values strongly enough,
you don't need to print them out and stick them on a wall.

If everyone shares them,
they don't need to read them off a wall, either.
-- Marcus J. Ranum
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Linda Walsh
2013-04-13 22:56:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Aylward
Post by Linda Walsh
why? PATH not working?
<quote src="man page for execcv">
Special semantics for execlp() and execvp()
The execlp(), execvp(), and execvpe() functions duplicate the
actions of the shell in searching for an executable file if the
specified filename does not contain a slash (/) character.
The file is sought in the colon-separated list of directory
pathnames specified in the PATH environment variable.
</quote>
and on the other there is the execve(2) system call that does not have
the wrapper that the above form and needs an absolute path name.
---
But PATH has been a standard that system programs
have historically honored. You don't want to have to hard-code paths
into an application because they may move.
Post by Anton Aylward
You're a person that has stripped things down on your system.
----
Not really... I just turn off unneeded functionality.
Post by Anton Aylward
What do you think the the smallest "init" or init-replacement could be
with the least other stuff running, that is without having to start up
the shell and all the stuff that drags in?
---
That would still be compatible with 99% of the the startup
software out there? I don't remove things that would break compatibility.
That'd be shooting myself in the foot.

The point is to reduce unnecessary work and not generate more work.
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Anton Aylward
2013-04-13 00:00:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Walsh
Putting all of usr on /rootfs nearly does the same thing, as the reason
for a small root was to have less on it needing updating.
You are so missing the point.
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Linda Walsh
2013-04-13 01:54:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Aylward
Post by Linda Walsh
Putting all of usr on /rootfs nearly does the same thing, as the reason
for a small root was to have less on it needing updating.
You are so missing the point.
---
Yes, I am. Could you tell me the point?

To me it creates a more unstable system, more prone to failure and
more difficult to restore to running condition. This means more downtime
and lower reliability overall. That's my point. So why do we want that?
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Anton Aylward
2013-04-13 02:58:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Walsh
Post by Anton Aylward
Post by Linda Walsh
Putting all of usr on /rootfs nearly does the same thing, as the reason
for a small root was to have less on it needing updating.
You are so missing the point.
---
Yes, I am. Could you tell me the point?
Because you can still have separate / and /usr without the problems you
raise.

I'm really baffled as to why you and others don't drill down and read
the back-story and admin notes and guides that surround the systemd project.
Post by Linda Walsh
To me it creates a more unstable system, more prone to failure and
more difficult to restore to running condition.
How so? You say that but don't say how that is so.
Post by Linda Walsh
This means more downtime
and lower reliability overall. That's my point. So why do we want that?
The only way I can see that you'd zap a / and not /usr of they were
separate is - BTDT - finger trouble. Else your whole disk dies.
Recovery modes reflect failure modes.


Right now, I'm running 12.3 on a old (so old the surface ought to be
flaking off the platters) 20G drive. Actually a couple of them in old
800 MHz machines out of the Closet of Anxieties. On one I have, as I
said, the whole system that isn't from NFS, which means that the basic /
and /usr are there. Crappy SiS video. With the latest kernel its still
acceptably fast. On the other everything except /boot is LVM and there
is separate / and /usr.

My point is that I've seen and am using both ways.

The difference between thee and mee is that I'm running pretty much "out
of the box". My problems, which I've described here in the past, are
(a) from the hardware, which is old and crappy, and (b) from
idiosyncrasies of the setup - that is they are my doing and not the
shortcomings of the system, but problems because I went ahead and did
stuff without thinking how it would impact the system.

But look: I can put the whole system except for /home and all the custom
stuff that might be under /srv for the web services on a 20G drive.
Lets see, just a mo while I copy back /usr/share ... and do a bit with
the basic /home

$ df -h
Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on
rootfs 18G 8.6G 7.8G 53% /
devtmpfs 1.2G 36K 1.2G 1% /dev
tmpfs 1.3G 12K 1.3G 1% /dev/shm
tmpfs 1.3G 440K 1.3G 1% /run
tmpfs 1.3G 0 1.3G 0% /sys/fs/cgroup
tmpfs 1.3G 440K 1.3G 1% /var/lock
tmpfs 1.3G 440K 1.3G 1% /var/run
tmpfs 1.3G 0 1.3G 0% /media

Of course YMMV, but that's a workstation with gimp, libreoffice and all
the other stuff you'd expect on a workstation. Lots of writing tools,
lots of Java based tools like UML modellers and XMIND and Freeplane in
/usr/local.

And its still less than 10G.

That's with the unified / and /usr

That's about twice the size of the UNIX V7 I ran on a PDP-11/45 back in
1982 and that didn't have networking, X11 or Java. Of course the
physical disk is a fraction the size of those old "flying saucer" RK05
packs.

So you're running big disks and RAID, but its still beside the point.
Your argument is that you want a / that is small; I resume you mean easy
to back up and restore.

Who whoopee Dee! Mine fits on a USB stick That's not just my / but my
/ and /usr. And not even a stick I had to pay money for but one of the
free give-aways I got at a trade show that the vendor puts the product
docco on.

What? Wait a mo. Here's the SD card from my camera, 32G, or the tiny
one from my phone. Here's the USB card reader.

No, to be honest, at one point that 20G disk was nearly full, even
without /usr/share on it, because I was running 'snapshot' to take
images from whenever I ran zypper or altered the config. Snapshot is a
great proof against finger trouble (see above) but not a lot of use
against your drive dying (see above). Its actually pretty smart about
only appearing to eat disk space :-)

So, I think you *ARE* missing the point.

I don't see any more instability with my 12.3 systems and systemd, the
one running separate / and /usr or the unified one, that an do with my
11.4 laptop.

When I "zypper up" it updates what it updates and which FS or mounted FS
doesn't bother it.

The system core and 'essential' applications & libraries are pretty
small so backup isn't an issue if you're worried about a disk failure.

The Snapshot system is recommended if you fear finger trouble.


But what it comes down to, Linda, is that if you've hacked your system
about as much as you keep telling us, directly or by implication, then
what you say is wrong with the 'out of the box' openSuse (or Fedora or
Mageia) that the rest of us are running is pretty much irrelevant
because its so far removed from what you're experiencing with your
system, and the problems you go on about, which I'm not saying aren't
factual for you, arise from the difference between your much modified
system and the more vanilla system the rest of us live with.

That's the point I think you're missing.
All this stuff that your saying is so dreadful seems to work fine for
me, even on my crappy hardware from the Closet of Anxieties.

Have I had problems? Well yes, but I find that they have, as I said
been due to either crappy hardware[1] or my own lack of understanding.
Reading and research and thought will cure the former; repeated visits
to the Closet of Anxieties or expenditure of hard earned lucre (or
bumming someone else's equipment) can address the former.

But that's me.
The problems some other people face can't be fixed, not even by going
back to older distributions. They aren't technical problems.



[1] Here's this DVD drive that will read and write just fine but you
can't use if for booting. I _think_ its a cable problem.
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Carlos E. R.
2013-04-15 00:56:34 UTC
Permalink
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On Friday, 2013-04-12 at 22:58 -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:

...
Post by Anton Aylward
And its still less than 10G.
That's with the unified / and /usr
My /usr alone has 18 GB. And it is small at the time.

- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
(from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar)

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Anton Aylward
2013-04-15 01:10:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos E. R.
...
Post by Anton Aylward
And its still less than 10G.
That's with the unified / and /usr
My /usr alone has 18 GB. And it is small at the time.
You obviously have more installed.
/usr/lib and /usr/share fill up PDQ as you add packages.
One of the developers has a /usr around that size 'cos of all the
libraries, development tools, debug tools etc. The share code lives
there, the CVS/GIT database lives there.

My personal setup is just writing - as in text, as in documentation &
reports and test suites/specifications and proposals.
--
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by how well we are understood."
-- Andrew S. Grove.
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Rajko
2013-04-15 01:11:38 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 02:56:34 +0200 (CEST)
Post by Carlos E. R.
My /usr alone has 18 GB. And it is small at the time.
And it is still small compared to hard disk sizes and some other OS
demands.
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Anton Aylward
2013-04-13 00:14:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Walsh
Also, it's not just about / and /usr, but also /usr/share --- at least a few
current booting progs make use of it,
Would you care to be more specific - tell us exactly what those are and
where they occur in the boot sequence, please.
Post by Linda Walsh
and the same arguments used for /usr can be
used for /usr/share (where do you load your fonts from?)
I happily have my /usr/share as a NFS supplied by a 'headless server'.
Of course your mileage may vary; you may have your fonts supplied by the
font server - xfs.

The point being that this is not needed until the X server starts up.

You may term that part of the boot sequence, but its not part of what
the initrd does for the rest of us. It, like the DNS server; like
Postfix; like the cron, ssh, and cups daemons, are all user space and
all come later.


If you mean the fonts for grub and what scrolls before init runs the rc
files or systemd runs, then of course that won't be on /usr/share!

Perhaps you need to qualify what fonts you are talking about and when
they are being accessed.
Post by Linda Walsh
My /usr/share is
a 3rd partition that is located on a 4th, /home, which requires lvm & udev...
On my (headless) server everything except /boot is on lvm.
On this workstation everything, including /boot, is on the single, all
encompasing - well everty8tg except the stuff under /home and /usr/share
and those ramfs - BtrFS.
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Linda Walsh
2013-04-13 02:19:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Aylward
Post by Linda Walsh
Also, it's not just about / and /usr, but also /usr/share --- at least a few
current booting progs make use of it,
Would you care to be more specific - tell us exactly what those are and
where they occur in the boot sequence, please.
---
They are in areas that were used as reasons to move files from
'/' to '/usr/... what I would mostly call 'services'...
Post by Anton Aylward
Post by Linda Walsh
and the same arguments used for /usr can be
used for /usr/share (where do you load your fonts from?)
I happily have my /usr/share as a NFS supplied by a 'headless server'.
Of course your mileage may vary; you may have your fonts supplied by the
font server - xfs.
----
That's disabled in some recent X due to some security bug or another.
It is assumed all fonts are local. I've been struggling to keep xfs-font server
available. I've been told by suse that it's outdated and should be dropped.
This is especially true since the xfs-font server used by suse doesn't support
scalable fonts (apparently there is a version that does, but not the one we use).
Post by Anton Aylward
The point being that this is not needed until the X server starts up.
---
But having "X" available @ boot, was used to support the argument that
/usr files needed to be on "/", so that booting to a full desktop
could be parallelized.
Post by Anton Aylward
You may term that part of the boot sequence, but its not part of what
the initrd does for the rest of us.
----
That's the flip side of my point. The stuff in initrd is
stuff that isn't able to be done in systemd and needs to be
done before systemd launches. My question was why does the stuff that is
done in initrd have to live in /usr? It was on root, why not leave it
on root?

It was systemd that needed things on /usr, But now initrd needs things
on /usr -- or rather the things that initrd does needs things on /usr -- but
that isn't "systemd", right?

So if no one moved files from /{bin,sbin,lib,lib64} --> their /usr equivs,
what was the issue besides libblkid was on /usr? Wouldn't it be simpler and more
compatible to move libblkid to /lib64?

There was 1 lib that mount needed that was on /usr. Because of that
all files on root had to be moved to /usr?



It, like the DNS server; like
Post by Anton Aylward
Postfix; like the cron, ssh, and cups daemons, are all user space and
all come later.
---
Agreed... This was the traditional model.

What I want to know is why has 'S' and '1' equivalent functional
run levels been crippled to need booting from a ram disk when in other
distros (RH/Fedora, at least), this is not the case?


The point was NEVER that all of the system startup had to be
on 'root'... that's never been the case. The only things that had to be were
the things on initrd. BUT one of the main arguments for moving everything from
'/' to /usr was to be able to startup all of the services at *boot time*.

If you accept that services are separate from boot, that there is
no compelling reason why the boot-related files cannot remain (be moved back)
to /root and create a compatible boot case...(like booting from HD).
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Anton Aylward
2013-04-13 11:21:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Walsh
Post by Anton Aylward
Post by Linda Walsh
Also, it's not just about / and /usr, but also /usr/share --- at least a few
current booting progs make use of it,
Would you care to be more specific - tell us exactly what those are and
where they occur in the boot sequence, please.
---
They are in areas that were used as reasons to move files from
'/' to '/usr/... what I would mostly call 'services'...
Again that's a bit vague. Can you be specific.
I can't see any services that move files that way.

Services like DNS, Apache aren't part of the boot.


Are you talking about what are symlinks between /bin and /usr/bin?
I suppose that gets back to your question about PATH.

Personally I think you're asking the question the wrong way round.
I think you need to ask "what binaries are needed by the shell to get
the system booted". Of course that means different things to different
people. Some people think 'booted' means "all the way to the graphical
login prompt". I don't. I think it means "to a state where it can
begin to execute and run programs in user space".

If we look at it like that, then being able to run the shell, being able
to run all those goodies in /usr/bin, isn't part of booting.

The whole point of the initrd is that it should contain all that is
needed to boot, all the binaries and libraries, before they become
available in the file system hierarchy.

And that's where we differ; I boot from initrd.

If you don't then this whole thread of discussion is pointless since the
implicit assumptions are so fundamentally different.


Perhaps it dates me, but I recall the fuss when what we now call the
sysvinit approach was introduced; when /home was introduced and when
/usr was used for things other than users home directories.

Why did we do that separation in the first lace?
Basically, / was getting overloaded. In the old V7 days directories go
searched linearly and there was no name caching. Big directories were a
problem. Splitting /bin and /lib and offloading some stuff to /usr/bin
and /usr/lib meant for smaller directories and hence faster operation.
What was it with linear searches? O(N)?

Now we have binary indexing it doesn't matter.


One thing many of us don't face is a Read Only Root.
We have living systems, adding and removing users and the like, altering
configuration. But in an embedded system we want the 'system' to be
fixed, probably on flash memory. Having a unified / and /usr makes that
a lot easier.
Post by Linda Walsh
Post by Anton Aylward
Post by Linda Walsh
and the same arguments used for /usr can be
used for /usr/share (where do you load your fonts from?)
I happily have my /usr/share as a NFS supplied by a 'headless server'.
Of course your mileage may vary; you may have your fonts supplied by the
font server - xfs.
----
That's disabled in some recent X due to some security bug or another.
That was back in 2007.
Post by Linda Walsh
It is assumed all fonts are local.
What? It assumed all the fonts were local to the machine XFS was
running on, not local to the machine that X was running on. You only
needed the one font server for your network.
Post by Linda Walsh
I've been struggling to keep xfs-font server
available. I've been told by suse that it's outdated and should be dropped.
Who told you that?
Yes its a heavy process and it makes no sense for most people who are
running Linux as a windows desktop replacement and have just that
machine. Simple to have the X server access the files locally.

But again you've missed my point.
You were going on about fonts being needed for boot.
I'm saying that's not so; that they can be supplied by a NFS mount or by
a font server. the issue is CAN BE. The issue is that this is nt
necessary for boot. It is only necessary for running X, and X is a
graphical mode user space application.

Its optional. You can boot without it.
Post by Linda Walsh
Post by Anton Aylward
The point being that this is not needed until the X server starts up.
---
/usr files needed to be on "/", so that booting to a full desktop
could be parallelized.
Where did you get from 'parallelised' to that being an argument for /usr
files on / ?? That seems a non sequitor.

We're back to you playing around with the definition of 'boot'.
You seem to be saying that a machine isn't booted until the graphical
login is presented on the screen. I think that's not so. If it were
the headless server under my desk that does DNS, my local web server,
some dhcp stuff and more "never boots".
Post by Linda Walsh
Post by Anton Aylward
You may term that part of the boot sequence, but its not part of what
the initrd does for the rest of us.
----
That's the flip side of my point. The stuff in initrd is
stuff that isn't able to be done in systemd and needs to be
done before systemd launches. My question was why does the stuff that is
done in initrd have to live in /usr? It was on root, why not leave it
on root?
See above.
Once upon a time all the stuff you thin of as being in /usr WAS in /.
The reasons for moving it to /usr are no longer valid.
Post by Linda Walsh
It was systemd that needed things on /usr,
That's a bit of an over simplification and over generalization.

I can write a target that needs /srv in order to start up Apache with
Tomcat and a web enabled application, but that doesn't mean systemd
needs things on /srv.

In fact you've got it backwards.
Given that / and /usr are the same file system it doesn't matter where
some stuff is so long as its where its expected to be. That is what the
symlinks you're complaining about are for. Some stuff really really
really lives in /usr/bin so the links from /bin to there are for the
stuff that isn't smart, that just does an exec for whatever reason.
Yes there are people who code 'exec' rather than than 'execlpv'. Yes
there are people who want light-weight chunks of code so try not to use
certain libraries or dynamic linking. They are trying to be "optimal"
for various values of 'optimal'. Just as you are with the way you've
modified your system ...
Post by Linda Walsh
But now initrd needs things
on /usr -- or rather the things that initrd does needs things on /usr -- but
that isn't "systemd", right?
No, initrd doesn't need. Its all a matter of how initrd is configured
whether it HAS or doesn't HAVE various things that it needs to do things
that are asked of it. If it is asked to mount /usr since /usr is a
separate FS before proceeding then it need to have that capability.
Heck, of you wanted you could include any or all of /usr/bin and
/usr/lib in initrd. Its easy to do. I know, I did it once by mistake!
Post by Linda Walsh
It, like the DNS server; like
Post by Anton Aylward
Postfix; like the cron, ssh, and cups daemons, are all user space and
all come later.
---
Agreed... This was the traditional model.
What I want to know is why has 'S' and '1' equivalent functional
run levels been crippled to need booting from a ram disk when in other
distros (RH/Fedora, at least), this is not the case?
Why does my my GM car have 5 nuts/lugs to hold each wheel on whereas my
father's old Ford (and it seems the Fords of today) have only 4? Was it
just that old man Ford back in the opening years of the 20th century was
a cheapskate? Are the Fords less safe or are the GMs over-engineered?

Why do different car manufactures use screws and bolts of different
threads? BS, Whitworth, metric?

Design decisions, opinions of engineers, product differentiations ...
Post by Linda Walsh
If you accept that services are separate from boot, that there is
no compelling reason why the boot-related files cannot remain (be moved back)
to /root and create a compatible boot case...(like booting from HD).
This is what I mean when I say you're missing the point.
If / and /usr (please! /root is the home directory of the user that
logs in under the id 'root'; its the only home directory no on /home)
are the same FS then the boot realted files are on the same FS as /.

They aren't on the same FS as /boot - that's interesting.

You need to read the above and think hard why we had a separate /usr in
the first place and why it was eventually put on a separate file system.
Logically we can split things up further. On one machine thetI have
control over I decreed that no file system could contain more that 5G so
they could be backed up to DVD. That meant on one developer's machine
we had to put /usr/lib/perl5 on a separate FS.

We could, logically, put /bin and /lib on their own file systems, along
with /usr/bin and /usr/lib. The we'd have the argument about moving
them each back to where we have had them on one FS.

Because that's the argument you're having.
I repeat, once upon a time there was only /bin and /lib - no /usr/bin or
/usr/lib. Splitting them was a performance modification. All we're
doing is going back to where we had it.

Well Ok, not quite absolutely. We still have /sbin, but that's another
story, another piece of optimization that led to something different.
--
Those who wish to seek out the cause of miracles, and to understand the
things of nature as philosophers, and not to stare at them in
astonishment like fools, are soon considered heretical and impious,and
proclaimed as such by those whom the mob adores as the interpreters of
nature and the gods. For these men know that once ignorance is put aside
that wonderment would be taken away which is the only means by which
their authority is preserved.
--Spinoza
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Linda Walsh
2013-04-13 14:39:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Aylward
Post by Linda Walsh
Post by Anton Aylward
Post by Linda Walsh
Also, it's not just about / and /usr, but also /usr/share --- at least a few
current booting progs make use of it,
Would you care to be more specific - tell us exactly what those are and
where they occur in the boot sequence, please.
---
They are in areas that were used as reasons to move files from
'/' to '/usr/... what I would mostly call 'services'...
Again that's a bit vague. Can you be specific.
I can't see any services that move files that way.
Services like DNS, Apache aren't part of the boot.
----
Not an issue.
Post by Anton Aylward
Are you talking about what are symlinks between /bin and /usr/bin?
I suppose that gets back to your question about PATH.
---
Which most programs handle with no problem, but systemd wants to revert
to hardcoded paths... that a step backwards.
Post by Anton Aylward
Personally I think you're asking the question the wrong way round.
I think you need to ask "what binaries are needed by the shell to get
the system booted". Of course that means different things to different
people. Some people think 'booted' means "all the way to the graphical
login prompt". I don't. I think it means "to a state where it can
begin to execute and run programs in user space".
----
Post by Anton Aylward
If we look at it like that, then being able to run the shell, being able
to run all those goodies in /usr/bin, isn't part of booting.
---
Ok -- most basic: mount. How do you mount /usr if it has
been moved off root onto /usr?

Most or all of coreutils. lvm, dm-setup, udev -- all of those
now need /usr as their libraries were moved to /usr/lib64.

I asked why I couldn't run boot off of disk and boot /usr/ first thing
then continue with the rest of the normal suse boot. I was told that couldn't
be done because mount (and lvm and dm_eventd all require usr now (or an image of usr
on initrd)). That didn't used to be the case. Those are the ones I'm complaining
about.
Post by Anton Aylward
The whole point of the initrd is that it should contain all that is
needed to boot, all the binaries and libraries, before they become
available in the file system hierarchy.
----
I want the systemd recommended optimization of getting rid of
initrd and booting from disk. It's an optimization I put in 10 years
ago and it cut boot time by 50%. I don't want to go back to slowboot.

Second thing is when things go wrong, I want to be able to come up on my
root if possible to fix it. That way I can boot with the kernel I'll need
to come up -- and when I get it running, I can just say 'go'. I don't
have to reboot from a rescue disk or pivot root off of an initrd.
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Anton Aylward
2013-04-13 16:22:57 UTC
Permalink
Linda, please DO NOT reply to both me and the list.
I do read the list :-)

Thanks.
--
The only freedom which deserves the name, is that of pursuing our own
good in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of
theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it.
--John Stuart Mill (On Liberty, 1859)
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Linda Walsh
2013-04-13 22:39:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Aylward
Linda, please DO NOT reply to both me and the list.
I do read the list :-)
Thanks.
----
I don't add your name. Your email headers say that to
respond to "all", it needs to send a copy to both you
and the list. The email software doesn't know that you are
on the list. You do (or the list does). At both places
where this knowledge is available (i.e. in your email client)
and in the list software), their is an option to sent the
"Reply-To:" field in the email.

This list doesn't set any intelligent (and seemingly wanted)
defaults for email to the list and puts the onus on the
users. But that requires users change their email software
to automatically put a Reply-To field in when responding to
this specific list.

Depending on your list software, this can be done in multiple ways.

You, like me, have a domain, and appear to setup "per-list" or
"per-company" addresses to aid in sorting incoming email -- something
I've done for 13 years. People used to think that was odd, but
now is becoming common-place enough that I almost never get questioned
about it.

Anyway -- with 2 different addresses in the from headers, it has been
standard to use Reply to *only* go to the person, or Reply-All to go to
the person and everyone in CC list -- this is because my email software
doesn't know if you are on the list or not -- some people on this
list have set the "Reply-To:" field to point only at the list.
That automatically tells client-email software the *default* reply-to
address.

that to respond to all, it needed
to reply to both. You can set your email software to put
SuSE Linux <***@opensuse.org>

in the "Reply-To:" field -- it's another field just like To, Cc:
and their newgroup counterparts Newsgroup: and Followup-To: that
can be set on a per-list basis in most email software.
See Loading Image... for
an example of this in firefox.


The Reply-To field takes precedence over the 'From' field when looking
for who to send responses to. So when I hit reply it goes to
the list-only. If I hit reply-All, the email software sees
still sees the 'reply-to' and 'cc' are the same address, and only
sends 1 copy. To send a copy to you and the list, I would have
to type in your email address manually, which I have to want
to do *intentionally*.

Since you have control over where responses go, I ask that you use
that control and stop asking others to NOT do as your emailer
is telling them to.

If you change everyone else to not follow the standards then you
break features for other people.

Example: If you send email to the list AND to the person, one email
may go into their "list folder" (that, by itself, gives no hint that
the email was sent "in response" to something they wrote). Vs. if it
is a response to something they said, it would be polite if there was
a way to let them know that someone replied, directly, to something they
wrote.

That's why it allows for 2 copies -- the one copy goes to a list
folder, but the one sent to them directly, goes directly to them and,
filtered appropriately, goes into a "direct" or "personal" response
folder.

That folder is *generally* read before list email, as it is obvious
the person said something directly to the poster in response to one
of their posts (vs. a general list email that isn't a direct response).

So please -- if you only want the 1 copy, set your email software to
put in 'Reply-To:' <listemail> and any standards-following email client
will automatically ONLY put in the list address when they 'hit' reply OR
reply to all -- i.e. they will have to type your address in manually for
you to get a 2nd, unwanted copy -- and how likely is that? :-)

Note -- most lists used to set this field on list-subscriptions based on
the list type (announce-only lists left reply-to field to go sender), but
discussion lists, where the normal action (or normal "want") is to
send to the list -- put the list in the "Reply-To:' field.

So alternatively to you doing it in your email would be to have the list
ownership take responsibility for the fact that most people seem to want
the default response to go back to the list. Thus, they could set the
list default to be 'Reply-To: <list>'...

The latter solution would solve it for everyone and would make these
types of 'side discussions' unnecessary. Perhaps you can convince them
this would be a good idea? I'm not especially well heard, often.

Cheers,
Linda
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Patrick Shanahan
2013-04-13 22:53:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Walsh
I don't add your name. Your email headers say that to
respond to "all", it needs to send a copy to both you
and the list. The email software doesn't know that you are
on the list. You do (or the list does). At both places
where this knowledge is available (i.e. in your email client)
and in the list software), their is an option to sent the
"Reply-To:" field in the email.
Linda, *you* are full of crap!

How the hell would one participate on the list w/o getting the list mail,
and/or why would they?
Post by Linda Walsh
This list doesn't set any intelligent (and seemingly wanted)
defaults for email to the list and puts the onus on the
users. But that requires users change their email software
to automatically put a Reply-To field in when responding to
this specific list.
The *lack* of intelligence is not in the mail list software!

Mail list software mudging headers, especially "Reply-To:", is considered
*wrong*. *You* are expected to reply to the list unless specifically
requested otherwise. *You* are free to add "Reply-To:" headers to the
mail you generate.
Post by Linda Walsh
Depending on your list software, this can be done in multiple ways.
And definitely should *not*!
Post by Linda Walsh
You, like me, have a domain, and appear to setup "per-list" or
"per-company" addresses to aid in sorting incoming email -- something
I've done for 13 years. People used to think that was odd, but
now is becoming common-place enough that I almost never get questioned
about it.
Anyway -- with 2 different addresses in the from headers, it has been
standard to use Reply to *only* go to the person, or Reply-All to go to
the person and everyone in CC list -- this is because my email software
doesn't know if you are on the list or not -- some people on this
list have set the "Reply-To:" field to point only at the list.
That automatically tells client-email software the *default* reply-to
address.
that to respond to all, it needed
to reply to both. You can set your email software to put
The mail client you posted has the capability to post-to-list, but ....

much verbosity about the sky falling deleted.....!
--
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http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2
http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member
Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net
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Linda Walsh
2013-04-14 00:15:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Shanahan
Linda, *you* are full of crap!
Patrick, your courtesy and knowledge of internet standards is
noted. While mine may be dated, yours is still wrong.
Post by Patrick Shanahan
That's a weak and ridiculous argument, Linda.
If it were so then every last message of mine you're replied to, or that
anyone else had relied to, would have had duplicates.
That hasn't been happening.
----
Because people on this list are taught to violate internet standards.
Post by Patrick Shanahan
Linda, first you are using obsolete mail software. You are using
"Thunderbird/2.0.0.24", instead of current version 17. Thus you
haven't noticed that Thunderbird displays a button to "Reply to list".
---
True, but the new version has other problems that I haven't had time or
wanted to allocate time to deal with.
Post by Patrick Shanahan
How the list is setup is done is correct, known, documented, and fixed
in stone. The list does not set a reply-to. You are free to do it if
you like.
----
You are right.
Post by Patrick Shanahan
It is considered polite here, if you don't have a "reply to list"
button, to use the "reply to all" button, then to delete the direct
address to the other poster. Don't make excuses on how the list is
setup or how your software is setup: it is simply the polite thing to do.
---
No -- it is not "polite", it is considered a violation of internet
standards, and is advised NOT to do, because many people expect to get
2 copies on a reply to all and file them differently. When you violate
that standard, documented behavior, you create "surprises". (either
people don't get emails they were expecting, or they get 2 copies).

See below for old standards, new standards, and the standard way to deal
with duplicate messages.


====
Not according to RFC 822.
4.4.4. AUTOMATIC USE OF FROM / SENDER / REPLY-TO

For systems which automatically generate address lists for
replies to messages, the following recommendations are made:

o If the "Reply-To" field exists, then the reply should
go to the addresses indicated in that field and not to
the address(es) indicated in the "From" field.
o If there is a "From" field, but no "Reply-To" field,
the reply should be sent to the address(es) indicated
in the "From" field.

This recommendation is intended only for automated use of
originator-fields and is not intended to suggest that replies
may not also be sent to other recipients of messages. It is
up to the respective mail-handling programs to decide what
additional facilities will be provided.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
----
This was updated to RFC 2822 which says Reply-To is at the USER's
discretion -- where they would like the email response to be
sent.
RFC 2822:
The originator fields also provide the information required when
replying to a message. When the "Reply-To:" field is present, it
indicates the mailbox(es) to which the author of the message suggests
that replies be sent. In the absence of the "Reply-To:" field,
replies SHOULD by default be sent to the mailbox(es) specified in the
"From:" field unless otherwise specified by the person composing the
reply.

Then Under a page "Munging Reply-to still considered harmful"
http://woozle.org/~neale/papers/reply-to-still-harmful.html

It talks about the problem of getting two copies -- and the solution is
with the receiver:

Getting two copies of the same email
------------------------------------

Some people complain that they'll get two copies of the same email.
Since they're on the list, their first copy is the one sent to them
by the list. When the responder hit "reply all", it also put their
email address in the recipient list, so they get a second copy
directly.

Fortunately, there's already a technical solution to this. Since all
mail clients put a unique Message-ID header field on their email,
a mail reader has only to compare the Message-ID of a message to
previously-recieved messages. If it's the same, then the second
message is a duplicate and can be safely ignored.

If your mail reader doesn't do this, that's too bad, but it's not an
excuse to violate Internet standards and surprise people with
inconsistent behavior, just to prevent you from having to delete
a few emails. Anyone who gets any spam at all knows how to delete
email.



----

The above says clearly to respond to ALL AND NOT delete the second copy
-- as it causes inconsistent behavior.

This is what I said in my original message. The stuff about Reply-To is
obviously dated, but the initial directions still hold true. Don't
force everyone who responds to you to adapt to something goes against
the standards.

The problem I have is I have problems typing in forms and such and make
mistakes. So when I go editing fields in the "To" areas, I sometimes
get wrong addresses.

Besides, I really like getting the extra copy when someone responds to
me -- it can allow me to give them a more timely response.
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Billie Walsh
2013-04-14 01:46:04 UTC
Permalink
Different e-mail lists are set up differently. I am on one list where
the default is reply to sender but the list requires reply to list. It
is absolutely stupid but that's how it is. One list I'm on has a
requirement to have your ham call sign in your signature [ all those
dots and dashes down there are me complying with the requirement ]. The
thing is, just do what is necessary to comply with however the majority
of the list people want it done and get along.

I do agree that everyone should use an up to date mail client. I've been
using Thunderbird since the first public release. I'm now up to version
17. This is the best it's ever been.
--
“Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former.”
-Albert Einstein


_ _... ..._ _
_._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._
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Anton Aylward
2013-04-14 11:26:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Walsh
Post by Carlos E. R.
Linda, first you are using obsolete mail software. You are using
"Thunderbird/2.0.0.24", instead of current version 17. Thus you
haven't noticed that Thunderbird displays a button to "Reply to list".
---
True, but the new version has other problems that I haven't had time or
wanted to allocate time to deal with.
Perhaps, just perhaps, Linda, if you spend less time arguing with the
likes of me, and less time justifying why you are right when vanilla
openSUSE doesn't work for you 'cos you've hacked it about so much, and
less time justifying why you are right and all the rest of us, those of
us who seem to be able to use systemd, the list and other things without
all this difficulty, then perhaps, just perhaps, you'd have the time to
deal with those unstated problem, the problems tat no-one else seems to
have, possibly because they don't run a hacked abut system, and s not
need to spend all this time justifying yourself.

This is send from Thunderbird 17.0.5 running under a systemd driven
openSuse 12.2 on a BtrFS file system on a crappy little 800MHz machine
out of the Closet of Anxieties that is running at a mere 800Mhz with a
stinking little 1Meg of memory ..

AND DOING JUST GREAT!

If you can't pick up something better than this at the Salvation Army
Store or some other thrift store then you are in a bad way.

If you can't run a stable, vanilla 12.2 or 12.3 release on more modern,
more capable hardware than this than all the evidence is that the
problem isn't with the hardware, and we know from all of us who run it
quite successfully that it isn't the software, so what else could it
possibly be?
--
If you are using Windows 2000, there is no chance that DES is your
weak link. The only justification for using 3DES is that it is cheap.
-- William Hugh Murray, CISSP
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Felix Miata
2013-04-14 12:21:50 UTC
Permalink
...running under a systemd driven
openSuse 12.2 on a BtrFS file system on a crappy little 800MHz machine
out of the Closet of Anxieties that is running at a mere 800Mhz with a
stinking little 1Meg of memory ..
Velly intellestink, considering current openSUSE kernels are about five times
your RAM size. :-)

My first machine owned, a 386DX-25, had 8Meg for running DesqView on DOS both
before and after that M$ v3.0 abomination was released. Even my 733MHz i810
system running 12.3 has 384M, including that allocated to its pathetic video.

It's amazing how the same people can repeatedly type so much about a subject
involving occasional extra DEL strokes or clicks, or insist an RFC is correct
and that munging headers would be unjustifiable heresy even though the mail
comes to me from the listserv and not its subscribing authors.

When you subscribe to a magazine, it doesn't come from its collective authors
and advertisers individually. It comes from a publisher. With mailing lists
the listserv is the publisher. We get opensuse list mail from an openSUSE
publisher, which collects articles for distribution from its subscribers. Any
normal person who knows or has heard nothing about any RFC expects _reply_ to
go back to the sender/publisher that the email came to him from, the
listserv, not individual article authors, who sent their compositions to the
listserv and not each individual subscriber.

So if you don't like that people send you an extra copy, and insist
counter-intuitive RFC conformance be locked in place for eternity, don't be
bitching about extra copies. They will not cease before RFC conformance
insanity is discarded in favor of munging. Whether through antiquated email
client, ignorance, laziness and/or intent, they will continue, so deal with
it personally, not by contributing to these recurring, pointless OT threads.
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
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Anton Aylward
2013-04-14 15:03:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Felix Miata
...running under a systemd driven
openSuse 12.2 on a BtrFS file system on a crappy little 800MHz machine
out of the Closet of Anxieties that is running at a mere 800Mhz with a
stinking little 1Meg of memory ..
Velly intellestink, considering current openSUSE kernels are about five times
your RAM size. :-)
I really said that, didn't I?
Well it will teach me (HA HA HA .. as if) not to post late at night.

When I run 'top' it says
KiB Mem: 1011540 total, 444308 used, 567232 free, 15740 buffers
KiB Swap: 1155068 total, 0 used, 1155068 free, 250504 cached

That's running 12.3 with xfce, thunderbird and midori and a couple of
xterms. If I open up firefox and the 40+ tabs things change somewhat :-)
Post by Felix Miata
My first machine owned, a 386DX-25, had 8Meg for running DesqView on DOS both
before and after that M$ v3.0 abomination was released. Even my 733MHz i810
system running 12.3 has 384M, including that allocated to its pathetic video.
Its really amazing how Linux can run so well on old, slow, underpowered
machines.

The only reason I can see that business don't appreciate this is that
they don't have the same economic drivers that individuals do. (Or
small startup or entrepreneurs etc etc). When the government gives a
distorted playing field, that is gives tax write-offs for buying new
equipment, there is actually an incentive to send perfectly good
equipment to landfill. Sadly the government isn't so keen do deal with
landfill and the contamination caused by dumping all that perfectly good
equipment.

I'm lucky here; nothing gets thrown out - well OK, old disks get
destroyed, which can be fun and you can salvage the 'fridge magnets'.
So the Closet of Anxieties - old stuff that may or may not work, has
been made redundant or too much trouble to debug (its easier/cheaper to
replace with new) is there as a pool of 'toys'.

It saves a trip to the Thrift Sore :-)

Please don't think the company runs on this junk; its just me and a
couple of others who treat it as a play-pen. There's an IBM SP3 rack
and room full or RAID behind it, plenty of over-powered workstations for
the developers etc etc etc. But so long as I have free time, no panics
or 'projects', the Closet is mine (OK I share it) to play in.

Its one way to keep current :-)
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Anton Aylward
2013-04-13 23:02:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Walsh
Post by Anton Aylward
Linda, please DO NOT reply to both me and the list.
I do read the list :-)
Thanks.
----
I don't add your name. Your email headers say that to
respond to "all", it needs to send a copy to both you
and the list. The email software doesn't know that you are
on the list. You do (or the list does). At both places
where this knowledge is available (i.e. in your email client)
and in the list software), their is an option to sent the
"Reply-To:" field in the email.
That's a weak and ridiculous argument, Linda.
If it were so then every last message of mine you're replied to, or that
anyone else had relied to, would have had duplicates.

That hasn't been happening.
--
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The mime next door went nuts!
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Carlos E. R.
2013-04-13 23:09:50 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Post by Linda Walsh
The latter solution would solve it for everyone and would make
these types of 'side discussions' unnecessary. Perhaps you can
convince them this would be a good idea? I'm not especially well
heard, often.
Linda, first you are using obsolete mail software. You are using
"Thunderbird/2.0.0.24", instead of current version 17. Thus you
haven't noticed that Thunderbird displays a button to "Reply to list".

How the list is setup is done is correct, known, documented, and fixed
in stone. The list does not set a reply-to. You are free to do it if
you like.

It is considered polite here, if you don't have a "reply to list"
button, to use the "reply to all" button, then to delete the direct
address to the other poster. Don't make excuses on how the list is
setup or how your software is setup: it is simply the polite thing to do.

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

iEYEARECAAYFAlFp5b4ACgkQIvFNjefEBxrZMQCfZn8i8MO4Bbp0M9ywDXmC8sD/
MCcAnizgrX/7IqwzuVUFcLeypiqREj60
=d1eb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Ken Schneider - openSUSE
2013-04-14 00:41:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Walsh
Post by Anton Aylward
Linda, please DO NOT reply to both me and the list.
I do read the list :-)
Thanks.
----
I don't add your name. Your email headers say that to
respond to "all", it needs to send a copy to both you
and the list. The email software doesn't know that you are
on the list. You do (or the list does). At both places
where this knowledge is available (i.e. in your email client)
and in the list software), their is an option to sent the
"Reply-To:" field in the email.
This list doesn't set any intelligent (and seemingly wanted)
defaults for email to the list and puts the onus on the
users. But that requires users change their email software
to automatically put a Reply-To field in when responding to
this specific list.
Depending on your list software, this can be done in multiple ways.
You, like me, have a domain, and appear to setup "per-list" or
"per-company" addresses to aid in sorting incoming email -- something
I've done for 13 years. People used to think that was odd, but
now is becoming common-place enough that I almost never get questioned
about it.
Anyway -- with 2 different addresses in the from headers, it has been
standard to use Reply to *only* go to the person, or Reply-All to go to
the person and everyone in CC list -- this is because my email software
doesn't know if you are on the list or not -- some people on this
list have set the "Reply-To:" field to point only at the list.
That automatically tells client-email software the *default* reply-to
address.
that to respond to all, it needed
to reply to both. You can set your email software to put
and their newgroup counterparts Newsgroup: and Followup-To: that
can be set on a per-list basis in most email software.
See http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/1962/foldersettings1.jpg for
an example of this in firefox.
The Reply-To field takes precedence over the 'From' field when looking
for who to send responses to. So when I hit reply it goes to
the list-only. If I hit reply-All, the email software sees
still sees the 'reply-to' and 'cc' are the same address, and only
sends 1 copy. To send a copy to you and the list, I would have
to type in your email address manually, which I have to want
to do *intentionally*.
Since you have control over where responses go, I ask that you use
that control and stop asking others to NOT do as your emailer
is telling them to.
If you change everyone else to not follow the standards then you
break features for other people.
Example: If you send email to the list AND to the person, one email
may go into their "list folder" (that, by itself, gives no hint that
the email was sent "in response" to something they wrote). Vs. if it
is a response to something they said, it would be polite if there was
a way to let them know that someone replied, directly, to something they
wrote.
That's why it allows for 2 copies -- the one copy goes to a list
folder, but the one sent to them directly, goes directly to them and,
filtered appropriately, goes into a "direct" or "personal" response
folder.
That folder is *generally* read before list email, as it is obvious
the person said something directly to the poster in response to one
of their posts (vs. a general list email that isn't a direct response).
So please -- if you only want the 1 copy, set your email software to
put in 'Reply-To:' <listemail> and any standards-following email client
will automatically ONLY put in the list address when they 'hit' reply OR
reply to all -- i.e. they will have to type your address in manually for
you to get a 2nd, unwanted copy -- and how likely is that? :-)
BULL SHIT Linda. Use the fracken "Reply List" button that Thunderbird
offers you. YOU have been on this list long enough to know the list
preferences, use them.
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SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998
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Linda Walsh
2013-04-14 01:11:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Schneider - openSUSE
BULL SHIT Linda. Use the fracken "Reply List" button that Thunderbird
offers you. YOU have been on this list long enough to know the list
preferences, use them.
===
Bull poop yourself Ken!. I don't have such a button -- read the standards
(the ones I quoted in my followup... ignore the Reply-To nonsense.. I was
wrong). But the 2 copies -- is a reader-issue, not a sender issue --
sender is supposed to send 2 copies on reply 2 all or it can cause lost
email.

http://woozle.org/~neale/papers/reply-to-still-harmful.html

Getting two copies of the same email
------------------------------------

* Some people complain that they'll get two copies of the same email.
Since they're on the list, their first copy is the one sent to them
by the list. When the responder hit "reply all", it also put their
email address in the recipient list, so they get a second copy
directly.

Fortunately, there's already a technical solution to this. Since all
mail clients put a unique Message-ID header field on their email,
a mail reader has only to compare the Message-ID of a message to
previously-recieved messages. *** If it's the same, then the second
message is a duplicate and can be safely ignored. **

* If your mail reader doesn't do this, that's too bad, but it's not an
* excuse to violate Internet standards and surprise people with
* inconsistent behavior, just to prevent you from having to delete
* a few emails. Anyone who gets any spam at all knows how to delete
* email.
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mike
2013-04-14 02:06:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Walsh
===
Bull poop yourself Ken!. I don't have such a button -- read the standards
(the ones I quoted in my followup... ignore the Reply-To nonsense.. I was
wrong). But the 2 copies -- is a reader-issue, not a sender issue --
sender is supposed to send 2 copies on reply 2 all or it can cause lost
email.
http://woozle.org/~neale/papers/reply-to-still-harmful.html
Getting two copies of the same email
------------------------------------
* Some people complain that they'll get two copies of the same email.
Since they're on the list, their first copy is the one sent to them
by the list. When the responder hit "reply all", it also put their
email address in the recipient list, so they get a second copy
directly.
Fortunately, there's already a technical solution to this. Since all
mail clients put a unique Message-ID header field on their email,
a mail reader has only to compare the Message-ID of a message to
previously-recieved messages. *** If it's the same, then the second
message is a duplicate and can be safely ignored. **
* If your mail reader doesn't do this, that's too bad, but it's not an
* excuse to violate Internet standards and surprise people with
* inconsistent behavior, just to prevent you from having to delete
* a few emails. Anyone who gets any spam at all knows how to delete
* email.
I am so tired of your pissing and moaing. Go find a distro that works for you
and quit bitching about this one. If you don't like it go elsewhere.

Don't bother answering. You've hit the bitbucket.
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Ken Schneider - openSUSE
2013-04-14 03:18:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Walsh
Post by Ken Schneider - openSUSE
BULL SHIT Linda. Use the fracken "Reply List" button that Thunderbird
offers you. YOU have been on this list long enough to know the list
preferences, use them.
===
Bull poop yourself Ken!. I don't have such a button -- read the standards
(the ones I quoted in my followup... ignore the Reply-To nonsense.. I was
wrong). But the 2 copies -- is a reader-issue, not a sender issue --
sender is supposed to send 2 copies on reply 2 all or it can cause lost
email.
http://woozle.org/~neale/papers/reply-to-still-harmful.html
Getting two copies of the same email
------------------------------------
Because you are to fucking lazy to delete one, period! If you don't have
a "Reply List" button upgrade the version of Thunderbird you are using
or install the add-on, or are you just to fucking lazy to do that also?
People are just plain tired of all of your ranting because things don't
work the way you want when you are unwilling to upgrade. Or you are
unwilling to upgrade because YOU cannot accept the changes.
Quite frankly I am fed up with it and have now created filters to move
ALL of your email to trash.
--
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SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998
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Linda Walsh
2013-04-14 07:14:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Schneider - openSUSE
Post by Linda Walsh
Post by Ken Schneider - openSUSE
BULL SHIT Linda. Use the fracken "Reply List" button that Thunderbird
offers you. YOU have been on this list long enough to know the list
preferences, use them.
===
Bull poop yourself Ken!. I don't have such a button -- read the standards
(the ones I quoted in my followup... ignore the Reply-To nonsense.. I was
wrong). But the 2 copies -- is a reader-issue, not a sender issue --
sender is supposed to send 2 copies on reply 2 all or it can cause lost
email.
http://woozle.org/~neale/papers/reply-to-still-harmful.html
Getting two copies of the same email
------------------------------------
Because you are to fucking lazy to delete one, period!
----
Exactly... That's what the standards say:

Some people complain that they'll get two copies of the same email.

Fortunately, there's already a technical solution to this. Since all
mail clients put a unique Message-ID header field on their email,
a mail reader has only to compare the Message-ID of a message to
previously-recieved messages. If it's the same, then the second
message is a duplicate and can be safely ignored.

If your mail reader doesn't do this, that's too bad, but it's not an
excuse to violate Internet standard and surprise people with
inconsistent behavior, just to prevent you from having to delete
a few emails.Anyone who gets any spam at all knows how to delete
email.


I'm not so lazy I can't deal with the rules -- I wrote programs to deal with
duplicate copies based on whatever rules I want. It seems you are the lazy one
who can't be bothered to write a filter to drop duplicate messages.

If any given user DOESN'T want to recieve two copies, then they can put reply-to
in the metainfo for that folder.
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Billie Walsh
2013-04-14 11:24:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Walsh
I'm not so lazy I can't deal with the rules -- I wrote programs to deal with
duplicate copies based on whatever rules I want. It seems you are the lazy one
who can't be bothered to write a filter to drop duplicate messages.
If any given user DOESN'T want to recieve two copies, then they can put reply-to
in the metainfo for that folder.
Oh come on! You may be some kind of a geek but do you REALLY expect
everyone to be one. No offense meant to those that aren't
but..........................

Lets face it, the average home computer user is barely able to turn it
on, get their e-mail and surf the web. They don't even know what an
e-mail header is let alone how to read one properly. They've never seen
the complete header and don't know how to find it. AND, you expect them
to make filters to delete a duplicate.................................
--
“Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former.”
-Albert Einstein


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Anton Aylward
2013-04-14 11:34:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Billie Walsh
Post by Linda Walsh
I'm not so lazy I can't deal with the rules -- I wrote programs to deal with
duplicate copies based on whatever rules I want. It seems you are the lazy one
who can't be bothered to write a filter to drop duplicate messages.
If any given user DOESN'T want to recieve two copies, then they can put reply-to
in the metainfo for that folder.
Oh come on! You may be some kind of a geek but do you REALLY expect
everyone to be one. No offense meant to those that aren't
but..........................
Lets face it, the average home computer user is barely able to turn it
on, get their e-mail and surf the web. They don't even know what an
e-mail header is let alone how to read one properly. They've never seen
the complete header and don't know how to find it. AND, you expect them
to make filters to delete a duplicate.................................
You are quire right, Billie, but that's beside the point.
Linda is being deliberately antagonistic.
And she is being deliberately inconsistent.
As I pointed out, her previous replies to me were not duplicates.

If we go back to

Message-ID: <***@tlinx.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 18:54:16 -0700
From: Linda Walsh <***@tlinx.org>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US;
rv:1.8.1.24) Gecko/20100228 Lightning/0.9
Thunderbird/2.0.0.24

then Linda did it "properly".
For all her bluster and justification, for all her saying she is right
and we are wrong, the fact is that she DOES know and is CAPABLE of
posting to the list correctly, without duplication, because she has done
so in the past.

There is no need for us to implement filters.
Well, OK, some of us have, by now, implemented more aggressive filters,
but that's another matter.
--
Opportunities multiply as they are seized.
--Sun Tzu
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Billie Walsh
2013-04-14 12:32:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Aylward
Post by Billie Walsh
Post by Linda Walsh
I'm not so lazy I can't deal with the rules -- I wrote programs to deal with
duplicate copies based on whatever rules I want. It seems you are the lazy one
who can't be bothered to write a filter to drop duplicate messages.
If any given user DOESN'T want to recieve two copies, then they can put reply-to
in the metainfo for that folder.
Oh come on! You may be some kind of a geek but do you REALLY expect
everyone to be one. No offense meant to those that aren't
but..........................
Lets face it, the average home computer user is barely able to turn it
on, get their e-mail and surf the web. They don't even know what an
e-mail header is let alone how to read one properly. They've never seen
the complete header and don't know how to find it. AND, you expect them
to make filters to delete a duplicate.................................
You are quire right, Billie, but that's beside the point.
Linda is being deliberately antagonistic.
And she is being deliberately inconsistent.
As I pointed out, her previous replies to me were not duplicates.
It's not just on this list either.
--
“Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former.”
-Albert Einstein


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Anton Aylward
2013-04-14 11:40:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Walsh
Post by Ken Schneider - openSUSE
Because you are to fucking lazy to delete one, period!
----
Some people complain that they'll get two copies of the same email.
No, Linda, what we're complaining about is that you are being
inconsistent and you are then trying to justify your inconsistency.

As I've pointed out and as I've got evidence here and as everyone else
on the list you're replied to has evidence, you are quite capable of
reply to the list alone without duplicates. You have, up until
yesterday done that. In fact your early relies yesterday weren't
duplicated.

This isn't about standards, Linda, its about your behaviour and your
attitude.

One might speculate that we've stymied you as far as your derision of
systemd goes, so now you're trolling on other matters.
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Linda Walsh
2013-04-14 21:26:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Aylward
No, Linda, what we're complaining about is that you are being
inconsistent and you are then trying to justify your inconsistency.
---
SuSE is very inconsistent in the 12.x series. And you
complain about me sending an extra email or not.

I'm very consistent -- when I get tired of deleting
things, *manually* that I've spent time adapting to the standards
and writing scripts to automate, I leave them.

I have scripts to deal with the standards. I *usually* cater to
the masses that can't deal with standards.

The fact of the mater is that the Reply-To field used to be set
on lists JUST to prevent this type of discussion/debate, but IANA spoke
and said everyone must adapt -- if the user is in the From line and
if it goes to a list -- then the standard says, to send back 2 copies.

I know people whine about it here. That doesn't mean it's right
or that they shouldn't be educated.

Dealing with all the complaints, my tolerance level drops at times
and I have more trouble dealing with 'extras' like deleting extra
email addresses that they person.

But I *like* lists that follow the standard. I prefer to get 2 copies
to emails that are in response to something I post. Then I know about it.
Otherwise, I have to go find posts where I've posted and see if there are
responses --
and sometimes I don't see responses at all -- I forget I posted in some thread or
I see it days later.
Post by Anton Aylward
As I've pointed out and as I've got evidence here and as everyone else
on the list you're replied to has evidence, you are quite capable of
reply to the list alone without duplicates. You have, up until
yesterday done that. In fact your early relies yesterday weren't
duplicated.
----
Capable? As long as you put "sometimes", sure. But that's what
my behavior is... sometimes I'm too tired to delete the extra address
and/or get tired of typing in the list address if I just hit reply.

So when I'm tired -- I'm more likely to revert to minimal effort --
follow the standard.
Note --- if you reply to this, it won't go to me, it will go to the list.
You won't have to delete my name, because I as the creator of this message
I can set the Reply-To field and point it at the list. Why those who don't want
two copies can't do the same thing rather than jumping on someone who is would
prefer
to follow the standard anyway, is beyond me. It's easier for them to jump on
people and
expect them to know that like their distro's, opensuse mail lists don't like
standards
either.
Post by Anton Aylward
This isn't about standards, Linda, its about your behaviour and your
attitude.
----

My attitude is fine. If you look tat the history of my posts, I'm sure
you'll find that over 90% have had the 2nd address deleted.
Post by Anton Aylward
One might speculate that we've stymied you as far as your derision of
systemd goes, so now you're trolling on other matters.
----
I didn't bring up the issue. Others did.


Actually, I asked questions multiple times for key information and was
waiting for any answer -- but to expect that is likely ludicrous.

In case you forgot:

1) So if no one moved files from /{bin,sbin,lib,lib64} --> their /usr equivs,
what was the issue besides libblkid was on /usr? Wouldn't it be simpler and more
compatible to move libblkid to /lib64?

There was 1 lib that mount needed that was on /usr. Because of that
all files on root had to be moved to /usr?

(remember, we are talking *boot-time* files that currently exist in /bin and
/usr/bin that
have been duplicated on initrd -- including the boot.d sysVinit scripts). What
it looks like
is systemd couldn't handle things from boot, so they hid the sysVinit type
scripts in initrd,
so they can claim they switched fully to systemd, while hiding the large amount
of boot that
systemd doesn't handle in initrd). There's no reason that can't be on disk
that I can
see... I've asked why multiple times and never gotten a straight answer that
showed WHY things
had to change and be moved.


Then we have your note, that you never answered:
2. --
Post by Anton Aylward
Post by Anton Aylward
Post by Linda Walsh
Putting all of usr on /rootfs nearly does the same thing, as the reason
for a small root was to have less on it needing updating.
You are so missing the point.
---
Yes, I am. Could you tell me the point?

To me it creates a more unstable system, more prone to failure and
more difficult to restore to running condition. This means more downtime
and lower reliability overall. That's my point. So why do we want that?

---
I need a ram disk to boot that contains duplicates of things I have on my system --
wny not boot from the system. Boot used to rely on files in /bin, lib[64],
/sbin...
Now relies on those + /usr/bin /usr/lib /usr/lib64... how is that not less
reliable if
/usr is corrupt or not mounted?

I could bring up the file-system restore utils from the root partition -- now?
Not in
the default config.


I had others, but those seems difficult enough for anyone to answer, and I'm
tired of
typing...
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Michael S. Dunsavage
2013-04-14 23:06:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Walsh
Post by Anton Aylward
No, Linda, what we're complaining about is that you are being
inconsistent and you are then trying to justify your inconsistency.
---
SuSE is very inconsistent in the 12.x series. And you
complain about me sending an extra email or not.
I'm very consistent -- when I get tired of deleting
things, *manually* that I've spent time adapting to the standards
and writing scripts to automate, I leave them.
I have scripts to deal with the standards. I *usually* cater to
the masses that can't deal with standards.
The fact of the mater is that the Reply-To field used to be set
on lists JUST to prevent this type of discussion/debate, but IANA spoke
and said everyone must adapt -- if the user is in the From line and
if it goes to a list -- then the standard says, to send back 2 copies.
I know people whine about it here. That doesn't mean it's right
or that they shouldn't be educated.
Dealing with all the complaints, my tolerance level drops at times
and I have more trouble dealing with 'extras' like deleting extra
email addresses that they person.
But I *like* lists that follow the standard. I prefer to get 2 copies
to emails that are in response to something I post. Then I know about it.
Otherwise, I have to go find posts where I've posted and see if there are
responses --
and sometimes I don't see responses at all -- I forget I posted in some thread or
I see it days later.
What I read here is "blablabla because I can't bring myself to agree
with the way the list is, I will just get on my soapbox until everyone
puts me in there bit bucket"
Post by Linda Walsh
Post by Anton Aylward
As I've pointed out and as I've got evidence here and as everyone else
on the list you're replied to has evidence, you are quite capable of
reply to the list alone without duplicates. You have, up until
yesterday done that. In fact your early relies yesterday weren't
duplicated.
----
Capable? As long as you put "sometimes", sure. But that's what
my behavior is... sometimes I'm too tired to delete the extra address
and/or get tired of typing in the list address if I just hit reply.
Ah, yes. Proving the inconsistency point.
Post by Linda Walsh
So when I'm tired -- I'm more likely to revert to minimal effort --
follow the standard.
Note --- if you reply to this, it won't go to me, it will go to the list.
You won't have to delete my name, because I as the creator of this message
I can set the Reply-To field and point it at the list. Why those who don't want
two copies can't do the same thing rather than jumping on someone who is would
prefer
to follow the standard anyway, is beyond me. It's easier for them to jump on
people and
expect them to know that like their distro's, opensuse mail lists don't like
standards
either.
Yes. too tired (lazy). If you want to conform to your beloved standards,
you can. This list has a set way. It is what it is. If you don't like,
go to ubuntu and bother them.
Post by Linda Walsh
Post by Anton Aylward
This isn't about standards, Linda, its about your behaviour and your
attitude.
----
My attitude is fine. If you look tat the history of my posts, I'm sure
you'll find that over 90% have had the 2nd address deleted.
Post by Anton Aylward
One might speculate that we've stymied you as far as your derision of
systemd goes, so now you're trolling on other matters.
----
I didn't bring up the issue. Others did.
Actually, I asked questions multiple times for key information and was
waiting for any answer -- but to expect that is likely ludicrous.
1) So if no one moved files from /{bin,sbin,lib,lib64} --> their /usr equivs,
what was the issue besides libblkid was on /usr? Wouldn't it be simpler and more
compatible to move libblkid to /lib64?
There was 1 lib that mount needed that was on /usr. Because of that
all files on root had to be moved to /usr?
(remember, we are talking *boot-time* files that currently exist in /bin and
/usr/bin that
have been duplicated on initrd -- including the boot.d sysVinit scripts). What
it looks like
is systemd couldn't handle things from boot, so they hid the sysVinit type
scripts in initrd,
so they can claim they switched fully to systemd, while hiding the large amount
of boot that
systemd doesn't handle in initrd). There's no reason that can't be on disk
that I can
see... I've asked why multiple times and never gotten a straight answer that
showed WHY things
had to change and be moved.
2. --
Post by Anton Aylward
Post by Anton Aylward
Post by Linda Walsh
Putting all of usr on /rootfs nearly does the same thing, as the reason
for a small root was to have less on it needing updating.
You are so missing the point.
---
Yes, I am. Could you tell me the point?
To me it creates a more unstable system, more prone to failure and
more difficult to restore to running condition. This means more downtime
and lower reliability overall. That's my point. So why do we want that?
---
I need a ram disk to boot that contains duplicates of things I have on my system --
wny not boot from the system. Boot used to rely on files in /bin, lib[64],
/sbin...
Now relies on those + /usr/bin /usr/lib /usr/lib64... how is that not less
reliable if
/usr is corrupt or not mounted?
I could bring up the file-system restore utils from the root partition -- now?
Not in
the default config.
I had others, but those seems difficult enough for anyone to answer, and I'm
tired of
typing...
Then stop typing. Well, type one more email. The one that removes you
from this list. You say you're tired. We're tired too. Of you. Crying.
Go. Away.
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Linda Walsh
2013-04-15 01:12:24 UTC
Permalink
If you want to rag on me, fine, but if you can't do anything to answer
the questions, then you are just noise.

There are technical issues that I've repeatedly asked that have not
been answered.
Post by Michael S. Dunsavage
Post by Linda Walsh
Actually, I asked questions multiple times for key
information and was waiting for any answer -- but to
expect that is likely ludicrous.
1) So if no one moved files from /{bin,sbin,lib,lib64}
--> their /usr equivs, what was the issue besides
libblkid was on /usr? Wouldn't it be simpler and more
compatible to move libblkid to /lib64?
There was 1 lib that mount needed that was on /usr.
Because of that all files on root had to be moved to
/usr?
(remember, we are talking *boot-time* files that
currently exist in /bin and /usr/bin that have been
duplicated on initrd -- including the boot.d sysVinit
scripts). What it looks like is systemd couldn't handle
things from boot, so they hid the sysVinit type scripts
in initrd, so they can claim they switched fully to
systemd, while hiding the large amount of boot that
systemd doesn't handle in initrd). There's no reason
that can't be on disk that I can see... I've asked why
multiple times and never gotten a straight answer that
showed WHY things had to change and be moved.
2. --
Post by Anton Aylward
Post by Linda Walsh
Putting all of usr on /rootfs nearly does the same thing, as the
reason for a small root was to have less on it needing updating.
You are so missing the point.
---
Yes, I am. Could you tell me the point?
To me it creates a more unstable system, more prone to failure
and more difficult to restore to running condition. This means
more downtime and lower reliability overall. That's my point.
So why do we want that?
---
I need a ram disk to boot that contains duplicates of things I have
on my system -- wny not boot from the system. Boot used to rely on
files in /bin, lib[64], /sbin... Now relies on those + /usr/bin
/usr/lib /usr/lib64... how is that not less reliable if /usr is
corrupt or not mounted?
I could bring up the file-system restore utils from the root
partition -- now? Not in the default config.
I had others, but those seems difficult enough for anyone to answer,
and I'm tired of typing...
Then stop typing. Well, type one more email. The one that removes you
from this list. You say you're tired. We're tired too. Of you. Crying.
Go. Away.
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Cristian Rodríguez
2013-04-10 21:40:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marc Chamberlin
Given that the YaST Runlevel editor is broken (Bug 800514) in
openSuSE12.3,
Ok, a little more commentary here.. the "runlevel" editor needs to be
changed to address the fact..that there no runlevels anymore :-)
Post by Marc Chamberlin
and it appears that the switch-over to systemd is still a
work in progress,
In this case it means Yast is dying due to the lack of developers.
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Carlos E. R.
2013-04-10 21:48:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cristian Rodríguez
In this case it means Yast is dying due to the lack of developers.
And in turn that will be the death of openSUSE.

- --
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Carlos E. R.
(from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar)
Anton Aylward
2013-04-10 21:54:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos E. R.
Post by Cristian Rodríguez
In this case it means Yast is dying due to the lack of developers.
And in turn that will be the death of openSUSE.
Unless ...
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Cristian Rodríguez
2013-04-10 22:00:48 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Cristian Rodríguez
In this case it means Yast is dying due to the lack of developers.
And in turn that will be the death of openSUSE.
Sorry but I do not see the connection between yast dying and openSUSE
dying.. anyway, work is being done to migrate out from the YCP language
and allow Yast development to continue using Ruby.

This of course is no warranty of success or it gaining more devs,
however the number people that know or want to learn ruby massively
outnumbers the ones willing to learn YCP.
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Carlos E. R.
2013-04-10 23:02:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos E. R.
Post by Cristian Rodríguez
In this case it means Yast is dying due to the lack of developers.
And in turn that will be the death of openSUSE.
Sorry but I do not see the connection between yast dying and openSUSE dying..
anyway, work is being done to migrate out from the YCP language and allow
Yast development to continue using Ruby.
YaST is the single tool that marks the difference between openSUSE and the
rest of the distros. If YaST dissapears and I have to hand configure
things, then I could as well use any thing like Debian instead.

IMNSHO :-)

- --
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Carlos E. R.
(from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar)
Anton Aylward
2013-04-10 23:41:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos E. R.
YaST is the single tool that marks the difference between openSUSE
and the rest of the distros. If YaST dissapears and I have to hand
configure things, then I could as well use any thing like Debian
instead.
IMNSHO :-)
+1
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Per Jessen
2013-04-11 06:07:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos E. R.
YaST is the single tool that marks the difference between openSUSE
and the rest of the distros. If YaST dissapears and I have to hand
configure things, then I could as well use any thing like Debian
instead.
IMNSHO :-)
+1
Yeah, I have to agree with Carlos - if it wasn't for YaST, I would never
have gotten off the ground with SuSE Linux back in the mid 90s. Today
I use YaST a lot less, but it is still a major advantage of openSUSE
over everybody else.
Well, a lack of developers for YaST - there's a test for the community.
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Damon Register
2013-04-11 14:03:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos E. R.
Post by Cristian Rodríguez
In this case it means Yast is dying due to the lack of developers.
And in turn that will be the death of openSUSE.
say it ain't so :-)
I hope that's all just a friendly discussion. I am slow at learning Linux.
I gave up on Solaris because it was too much of a struggle for me to learn
and keep up with it. I would hate to see openSUSE die since it has taken
me 14 years of learning about it.

Damon Register
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Ken Schneider - openSUSE
2013-04-11 15:41:18 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Cristian Rodríguez
In this case it means Yast is dying due to the lack of developers.
And in turn that will be the death of openSUSE.
Exactly. YaST is THE reason I stay with openSUSE, as the rest is going
down the tubes with the rapid release cycle (let's push it out ready or
not, and lately it has not been ready to be released).
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Anton Aylward
2013-04-10 21:53:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cristian Rodríguez
Post by Marc Chamberlin
Given that the YaST Runlevel editor is broken (Bug 800514) in
openSuSE12.3,
Ok, a little more commentary here.. the "runlevel" editor needs to be
changed to address the fact..that there no runlevels anymore :-)
Which is the bug.
The tools to manage system *are* there.
Post by Cristian Rodríguez
Post by Marc Chamberlin
and it appears that the switch-over to systemd is still a
work in progress,
In this case it means Yast is dying due to the lack of developers.
And so many reviews of the past have said that it is Yast which makes
openSuse distinct.

*sigh*
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Anton Aylward
2013-04-10 21:48:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marc Chamberlin
Given that the YaST Runlevel editor is broken (Bug 800514) in
openSuSE12.3, and it appears that the switch-over to systemd is still a
work in progress,
Indeed.
Just like the kernel is a 'work in progress';
along with KDE4, Gnome, and everything else I have running under all the
versions of Linux I have.

Are you hinting that something like Windows is _not_ a work in progress?
(I realise that too can be taken more than one way!)
Post by Marc Chamberlin
my question is this - Is the only workaround, to
automatically starting up services during boot up, is to go in and
manually create the links in the /etc/init.d/rc*.d directories for the
various services one needs?
I can't see how that would be a work-around, and you haven't make it
clear what it would be a work-around for.

If you want to add services for boot time, well that's what the
'systemctl' command is for (option: 'enable'). If you want to start
them right away, well that's what the 'systemctl' command is for
(option: 'start').

I realise that the 'systemctl' command (or its GUI equivilent) are
really just wrappers around the mechanism for symbolic links; heck the
man page even says that! But it saves me having to specify a path.
Post by Marc Chamberlin
That is going to be a real PITA trying to
figure out by hand the order in which all our services must be started
and stopped. Anyone have another better workaround solution?
No; systemd make it a lot clearer the order in which things get started
and stopped. Its called a dependency tree.
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/archive/index.php/t-266768.html

Things that aren't dependent on each other can be run in parallel.

In fact systemd *IS* the "Better Workaround".
Better because it overcomes so many problems that can and do arise with
the sysvinit approach. All of which is well documented. q.v.
Post by Marc Chamberlin
BTW - This is the second major bug I have now encountered in trying to
install and use openSuSE12.3. (The first was, and appears it may still
be, Bug 809843 which was a showstopper for me.) Can't say I am very
impressed with this release, and am thinking about dropping back to 12.2
(or perhaps even earlier) for our servers and gateway systems and wait
until 13.x comes out....
You problem isn't with 12.3.
I had systemd working well in 12.2
The reason I had it working was that I let go of the sysvinit approach -
abandoned it altogether. Having admitted that to myself I had no real
problem, no show-stoppers, just more reading of the man pages etc and
improving my understanding of systemd.

If old, decrepit, superannuated alzheimer-candidates like Patric and
myself can manage that, I'm sure that younger, more nimble minds can
manage it as well.
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Ken Schneider - openSUSE
2013-04-11 15:48:59 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Anton Aylward
If old, decrepit, superannuated alzheimer-candidates like Patric and
myself can manage that, I'm sure that younger, more nimble minds can
manage it as well.
I have you and Patrick beat with my extreme short term memory loss on
top of what you have. :-)
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Patrick Shanahan
2013-04-11 17:16:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Schneider - openSUSE
<snip>
Post by Anton Aylward
If old, decrepit, superannuated alzheimer-candidates like Patric and
myself can manage that, I'm sure that younger, more nimble minds can
manage it as well.
I have you and Patrick beat with my extreme short term memory loss on
top of what you have. :-)
See and raise you six Dos Equis and three rounds of chemo.

Brain cell retention may be somewhat diminished in addition to that
related to the aging process :^).

ps: if Dos Equiss not available, Tecante, Modelo or Corona will do.
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Ken Schneider - openSUSE
2013-04-11 20:57:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Shanahan
Post by Ken Schneider - openSUSE
<snip>
Post by Anton Aylward
If old, decrepit, superannuated alzheimer-candidates like Patric and
myself can manage that, I'm sure that younger, more nimble minds can
manage it as well.
I have you and Patrick beat with my extreme short term memory loss on
top of what you have. :-)
See and raise you six Dos Equis and three rounds of chemo.
Brain cell retention may be somewhat diminished in addition to that
related to the aging process :^).
ps: if Dos Equiss not available, Tecante, Modelo or Corona will do.
How about just plain 'ol 151. It sure is quicker. LOL :-)
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Damon Register
2013-04-11 14:24:29 UTC
Permalink
Given that the YaST Runlevel editor is broken (Bug 800514) in openSuSE12.3, and it appears that the
switch-over to systemd is still a work in progress, my question is this - Is the only workaround, to
automatically starting up services during boot up, is to go in and manually create the links in the
Now that I have read through the messages in this thread the best I could,
I would like to ask a question or two and hope y'all can be patient with
me. This whole runlevel discussion is a bit of a surprise to me but
then I guess I am a bit behind on SuSE and Linux in general. I just
installed 12.3 and am generally happy with it. I had some trouble with
graphics but I took advice from this list and got a new video card that
made the computer work better than ever. I remember looking at runlevel
in YaST but only because I wanted it to boot to runlevel 3 when I was
having that graphics card trouble.

I didn't really notice anything different in the YaST runlevel setting.
Do I understand correctly there is a significant departure or shift in
use of runlevel or how it works? Is there anyone who can help me understand
this discussion?

Damon Register
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Anton Aylward
2013-04-11 15:33:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Damon Register
I didn't really notice anything different in the YaST runlevel setting.
Do I understand correctly there is a significant departure or shift in
use of runlevel or how it works? Is there anyone who can help me understand
this discussion?
It depends on whether your system is running with systemd or sysvinit.
You can use zypper (or rpm) to what/which is installed.

Systemd has a backward compatibility function so commands such as
init 3
and
init 5
still appear work.
Many things that still appear to exist under /etc/init.d are actually
'aliased' to their systemd equivalents.


For the ordinary user, so long as there are no hardware problems, it
should be the same old "turn it on, wait a bit and see the login screen".

Unless you're specifically interested, in which case there is a vast
amount of documentation, there's little reason to look "under the hood".
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Upscope
2013-04-11 18:53:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Aylward
Post by Damon Register
I didn't really notice anything different in the YaST runlevel
setting. Do I understand correctly there is a significant departure
or shift in use of runlevel or how it works? Is there anyone who
can help me understand this discussion?
It depends on whether your system is running with systemd or sysvinit.
You can use zypper (or rpm) to what/which is installed.
Systemd has a backward compatibility function so commands such as
init 3
and
init 5
still appear work.
Many things that still appear to exist under /etc/init.d are actually
'aliased' to their systemd equivalents.
Even though the init commands still work I have been using
[CODE]
systemctl isolate runlevel3.target
and
systemctl isolate runlevel5.target
[/CODE]

A few more key strokes but they do work. A lot more I need to learn
about this new stuff, especially how to tell a service to start at boot
or level 3, 4 or 5, etc.
Post by Anton Aylward
For the ordinary user, so long as there are no hardware problems, it
should be the same old "turn it on, wait a bit and see the login screen".
Unless you're specifically interested, in which case there is a vast
amount of documentation, there's little reason to look "under the hood".
--
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you're given, while being very careful what you send back.
--
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Cristian Rodríguez
2013-04-11 19:27:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Upscope
especially how to tell a service to start at boot
or level 3, 4 or 5, etc.
You usually don't, runlevels no longer exist and services will come up
according what target, service or device needs it.
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Linda Walsh
2013-04-11 19:38:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cristian Rodríguez
Post by Upscope
especially how to tell a service to start at boot
or level 3, 4 or 5, etc.
You usually don't, runlevels no longer exist and services will come up
according what target, service or device needs it.
----
Aren't runlevels aliases to a set of services that the user
wants to be running at a given point?

Are you saying that equivalent targets couldn't be created
to provide the same functionality?
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Anton Aylward
2013-04-11 19:56:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Walsh
Post by Cristian Rodríguez
Post by Upscope
especially how to tell a service to start at boot
or level 3, 4 or 5, etc.
You usually don't, runlevels no longer exist and services will come up
according what target, service or device needs it.
----
Aren't runlevels aliases to a set of services that the user
wants to be running at a given point?
Are you saying that equivalent targets couldn't be created
to provide the same functionality?
I think what Linda is asking is this

If multi-user.target and graphical.target are the 'root's of a set of
dependency threes, they why can't there be another root, say
'network-only.target' which is single user with networking enabled.,
that is, no logind running.

Perhaps someone would care to experiment?
Or ask Lennart.
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Carlos E. R.
2013-04-12 02:24:09 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Anton Aylward
For the ordinary user, so long as there are no hardware problems, it
should be the same old "turn it on, wait a bit and see the login screen".
Unless you're specifically interested, in which case there is a vast
amount of documentation, there's little reason to look "under the hood".
But when there are problems, it is very difficult.

There is a chap in the forum whose system is starting into emergency mode
everytime, and we can not figure out why.

- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
(from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar)
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Cristian Rodríguez
2013-04-12 02:33:10 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Anton Aylward
For the ordinary user, so long as there are no hardware problems, it
should be the same old "turn it on, wait a bit and see the login screen".
Unless you're specifically interested, in which case there is a vast
amount of documentation, there's little reason to look "under the hood".
But when there are problems, it is very difficult.
If you dont understand it.. yes it is hard, like pretty much everything
else.
There is a chap in the forum whose system is starting into emergency
mode everytime, and we can not figure out why.
Does http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/Debugging yields any
clue ?
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Carlos E. R.
2013-04-12 03:29:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos E. R.
But when there are problems, it is very difficult.
If you dont understand it.. yes it is hard, like pretty much everything else.
When systemv dropped you into emergency mode, the reason was clearly
printed in the screen, whithout having to dig into logs. Like a device not
mounting of failing fsck.

This did not happen in 12.2.

I wrote a bugzilla about this issue, and was told that things would be
much better in 12.3. It appears they are... but not enough.

I want to experiment with this myself on a virtual machine. It is
difficult to diagnose things remotely.
Post by Carlos E. R.
There is a chap in the forum whose system is starting into emergency
mode everytime, and we can not figure out why.
Does http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/Debugging yields any clue ?
I just had a quick look at it, and so far nothing "jumps" out at me. I'll
look again tomorrow, when I get time... tomorrow I'll be busy. I'm off to
bed now.

- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
(from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar)
Andrey Borzenkov
2013-04-11 15:37:08 UTC
Permalink
В Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:24:29 -0400
Post by Damon Register
I didn't really notice anything different in the YaST runlevel setting.
It simply does not work. Attempt to enable service does not persist
across reboots. Or at least that is what users report.
Post by Damon Register
Do I understand correctly there is a significant departure or shift in
use of runlevel or how it works? Is there anyone who can help me understand
this discussion?
systemd does not have notion of run-levels. It has collection of
services which are pulled in by dependencies. It has some standard
targets which loosely correspond to traditional run levels 3 and 5 but
in general systemd aims at dynamic on demand service activation similar
to (x)inetd, but more general. So you do not really have static list of
scripts to run at run level, nor do you even have these run levels.

Making GUI that help end user to manage it is a challenge :)
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