Discussion:
City of Munich
(too old to reply)
Timothy Butterworth
2014-09-21 15:37:01 UTC
Permalink
The City of Munich is currently collecting data to plan their next
upgrade strategy. As many of you may know they are still on an old
Ubuntu LTS customized build with KDE 3.5.

If anyone is located near Munich now would be a great time to attempt
to schedule a presentation give to the city council on the benefits of
migrating to openSUSE 13.1 with KDE 4 for their next desktop rollout!

Munich has been known to both fund development in LibreOffice as well
as locally develop as well!

OBS would be great to showcase to them and this could possibly get us
some new packagers/maintainers.

The OBS LibreOffice repo hosting The Fresh release build would also be
great for Munich from recent reports that they are migrating to LO
from AOO and funding LO development work.

Munich runs multiple different heavily tweaked desktop builds as such
Kiwi Imaging and Automated Installation would also be great to include
as well.

Data at rest security would be another great topic as YaST as well as
The OpenSUSE installation medium make it very easy to encrypt
partitions with LUKS and Ubuntu's graphical tools are still limited.

Currently The City Council is working with The City Library to
distribute older Ubuntu CD's. It would be great to schedule an
openSUSE event with The Library and get The Ambassadors out in full
force for a weekend openSUSE/SUSE Linux Expo. Getting some openSUSE
books into circulation in The Library as well would be great.

openSUSE will also work with Novell ZenWorks which they could leverage
to have enterprise management features, but Munich does make it known
they want community FLOSS solutions.

This would be a great opportunity to get some great press for SUSE/openSUSE!

SuSE was always a favorite and well utilized GNU/Linux distro in
Germany and EU and this name recognition and the fact that openSUSE
boxed versions are available may also help with the political issues
taking place as well.

It could be good to cover openSUSE Edu spin as well and showcase how
it can be utilized in The City of Munich Schools or even at The City
of Munich Public Library for students to access.

Has there been any action from The openSUSE community to engage The
City of Munich so far?
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S S
2014-09-24 04:25:09 UTC
Permalink
Evergreen releases are still less than half the supported time of a
Ubuntu LTS release, so it would be a poor choice and difficult sell to
the city of Munich. That's one major drawback to openSUSE and one
debate that should be had; I've been talking to lots of people on
Windows and they're still running XP or Vista. Many people run their
OS for 10 years. openSUSE people want the desktop, yet they're
unwilling to support it longer than 18 months unless it's an Evergreen
release, and even then it's not Ubuntu LTS comparable.

On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 8:37 AM, Timothy Butterworth
Post by Timothy Butterworth
The City of Munich is currently collecting data to plan their next
upgrade strategy. As many of you may know they are still on an old
Ubuntu LTS customized build with KDE 3.5.
If anyone is located near Munich now would be a great time to attempt
to schedule a presentation give to the city council on the benefits of
migrating to openSUSE 13.1 with KDE 4 for their next desktop rollout!
Munich has been known to both fund development in LibreOffice as well
as locally develop as well!
OBS would be great to showcase to them and this could possibly get us
some new packagers/maintainers.
The OBS LibreOffice repo hosting The Fresh release build would also be
great for Munich from recent reports that they are migrating to LO
from AOO and funding LO development work.
Munich runs multiple different heavily tweaked desktop builds as such
Kiwi Imaging and Automated Installation would also be great to include
as well.
Data at rest security would be another great topic as YaST as well as
The OpenSUSE installation medium make it very easy to encrypt
partitions with LUKS and Ubuntu's graphical tools are still limited.
Currently The City Council is working with The City Library to
distribute older Ubuntu CD's. It would be great to schedule an
openSUSE event with The Library and get The Ambassadors out in full
force for a weekend openSUSE/SUSE Linux Expo. Getting some openSUSE
books into circulation in The Library as well would be great.
openSUSE will also work with Novell ZenWorks which they could leverage
to have enterprise management features, but Munich does make it known
they want community FLOSS solutions.
This would be a great opportunity to get some great press for SUSE/openSUSE!
SuSE was always a favorite and well utilized GNU/Linux distro in
Germany and EU and this name recognition and the fact that openSUSE
boxed versions are available may also help with the political issues
taking place as well.
It could be good to cover openSUSE Edu spin as well and showcase how
it can be utilized in The City of Munich Schools or even at The City
of Munich Public Library for students to access.
Has there been any action from The openSUSE community to engage The
City of Munich so far?
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John Andersen
2014-09-24 04:57:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by S S
Many people run their
OS for 10 years. openSUSE people want the desktop, yet they're
unwilling to support it longer than 18 months unless it's an Evergreen
release, and even then it's not Ubuntu LTS comparable.
In the past long running stable releases were the area for SLED instead of Opensuse.

Will we ever get out of the mold of just being a proving ground for SLED?
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S S
2014-09-24 05:10:08 UTC
Permalink
Was just having a conversation with a computer tech friend who was
interested in using openSUSE for his customers instead of Windows. As
soon as he found out the short support cycle, he immediately became
disinterested. This is common amongst most people I talk to.
Post by John Andersen
Post by S S
Many people run their
OS for 10 years. openSUSE people want the desktop, yet they're
unwilling to support it longer than 18 months unless it's an Evergreen
release, and even then it's not Ubuntu LTS comparable.
In the past long running stable releases were the area for SLED instead of Opensuse.
Will we ever get out of the mold of just being a proving ground for SLED?
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Dirk Gently
2014-09-28 00:19:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by S S
Was just having a conversation with a computer tech friend who was
interested in using openSUSE for his customers instead of Windows. As
soon as he found out the short support cycle, he immediately became
disinterested. This is common amongst most people I talk to.
Of course. It makes it quite precarious for a business.
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John Andersen
2014-09-28 01:15:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dirk Gently
Post by S S
Was just having a conversation with a computer tech friend who was
interested in using openSUSE for his customers instead of Windows. As
soon as he found out the short support cycle, he immediately became
disinterested. This is common amongst most people I talk to.
Of course. It makes it quite precarious for a business.
On the the other hand SLED was designed for this.
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Timothy Butterworth
2014-09-24 14:06:29 UTC
Permalink
From: <***@gmail.com>

"Evergreen releases are still less than half the supported time of a
Ubuntu LTS release, so it would be a poor choice and difficult sell to
the city of Munich. That's one major drawback to openSUSE and one
debate that should be had; I've been talking to lots of people on
Windows and they're still running XP or Vista. Many people run their
OS for 10 years. openSUSE people want the desktop, yet they're
unwilling to support it longer than 18 months unless it's an Evergreen
release, and even then it's not Ubuntu LTS comparable."

From:

"In the past long running stable releases were the area for SLED
instead of Opensuse.

Will we ever get out of the mold of just being a proving ground for SLED?"

This is what I think we should do!

openSUSE Evergreen releases can range from 3-4 years of support but 3
is essentially guaranteed. Starting with Ubuntu 12.04 LTS, both The
Server and Desktop versions will receive 5 years support.

We are slightly shorter by around two years for Evergreen LTS
releases, as the next Evergreen release is also free of cost and
openSUSE upgrades do work rather well. I do not really see needing to
bump up to a five year Guarantee.

I would like to see openSUSE start using the Major.0 release again and
possibly move to this type of release cycle.

14.0 Evergreen Release
14.1 Developer/Tester/Enthusiast Release targeted to development of
the next Evergreen
14.2 Developer/Tester/Enthusiast Release targeted to development of
the next Evergreen
14.3 Developer/Tester/Enthusiast Release targeted to development of
the next Evergreen
15.0 Evergreen Release
(15.1 + 3 Months) = 14.0 Evergreen EOL

This would provide around a 13 month stabilizing for the Evergreen
release before users need to migrate over to it. This would make an
evergreen release receive support for just over four years, but
incorporating release delays it would put us close to five years.
Evergreen EOL = (5 Releases + 3 Months)

For the minor update releases they are currently supported for around
18 months (2 releases + 2 months). I would rather see these change to
(1 release + 4 months). Most users do not keep minor releases for 18
months. Keeping them maintained this long does use up resources. I
think we should treat the 3 minor update release's as the proving
ground developer/tester/enthusiast targeted releases to work up to the
new Evergreen release.
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Marcus Meissner
2014-09-24 14:20:47 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

The main issue with the City of Munich is that we would be just
one component.

They probably need a consulting/software company that can handle
a big city with ten thousands of machines.

Release plans / schedules should be discussed under a different
mail topic.

Ciao, Marcus
Post by Timothy Butterworth
"Evergreen releases are still less than half the supported time of a
Ubuntu LTS release, so it would be a poor choice and difficult sell to
the city of Munich. That's one major drawback to openSUSE and one
debate that should be had; I've been talking to lots of people on
Windows and they're still running XP or Vista. Many people run their
OS for 10 years. openSUSE people want the desktop, yet they're
unwilling to support it longer than 18 months unless it's an Evergreen
release, and even then it's not Ubuntu LTS comparable."
"In the past long running stable releases were the area for SLED
instead of Opensuse.
Will we ever get out of the mold of just being a proving ground for SLED?"
This is what I think we should do!
openSUSE Evergreen releases can range from 3-4 years of support but 3
is essentially guaranteed. Starting with Ubuntu 12.04 LTS, both The
Server and Desktop versions will receive 5 years support.
We are slightly shorter by around two years for Evergreen LTS
releases, as the next Evergreen release is also free of cost and
openSUSE upgrades do work rather well. I do not really see needing to
bump up to a five year Guarantee.
I would like to see openSUSE start using the Major.0 release again and
possibly move to this type of release cycle.
14.0 Evergreen Release
14.1 Developer/Tester/Enthusiast Release targeted to development of
the next Evergreen
14.2 Developer/Tester/Enthusiast Release targeted to development of
the next Evergreen
14.3 Developer/Tester/Enthusiast Release targeted to development of
the next Evergreen
15.0 Evergreen Release
(15.1 + 3 Months) = 14.0 Evergreen EOL
This would provide around a 13 month stabilizing for the Evergreen
release before users need to migrate over to it. This would make an
evergreen release receive support for just over four years, but
incorporating release delays it would put us close to five years.
Evergreen EOL = (5 Releases + 3 Months)
For the minor update releases they are currently supported for around
18 months (2 releases + 2 months). I would rather see these change to
(1 release + 4 months). Most users do not keep minor releases for 18
months. Keeping them maintained this long does use up resources. I
think we should treat the 3 minor update release's as the proving
ground developer/tester/enthusiast targeted releases to work up to the
new Evergreen release.
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Timothy Butterworth
2014-09-24 15:02:27 UTC
Permalink
I wonder if SUSE would consider putting together a proposal to bid to
migrate them to openSUSE. The City of Munich has vocalized that their
goal is to utilize The community support as their primary support so
it would primarily be the desktop and possibly server migrations that
they would be doing.

openSUSE would end up gaining 15K or whatever number of desktops they
have now. It would be a great advertising tool and case study for
migration to SUSE and implementing a Enterprise that large on SUSE.

The City of Munich will of course continue to get headlines for MiLux
for years to come.
Post by Marcus Meissner
Hi,
The main issue with the City of Munich is that we would be just
one component.
They probably need a consulting/software company that can handle
a big city with ten thousands of machines.
Release plans / schedules should be discussed under a different
mail topic.
Ciao, Marcus
Post by Timothy Butterworth
"Evergreen releases are still less than half the supported time of a
Ubuntu LTS release, so it would be a poor choice and difficult sell to
the city of Munich. That's one major drawback to openSUSE and one
debate that should be had; I've been talking to lots of people on
Windows and they're still running XP or Vista. Many people run their
OS for 10 years. openSUSE people want the desktop, yet they're
unwilling to support it longer than 18 months unless it's an Evergreen
release, and even then it's not Ubuntu LTS comparable."
"In the past long running stable releases were the area for SLED
instead of Opensuse.
Will we ever get out of the mold of just being a proving ground for SLED?"
This is what I think we should do!
openSUSE Evergreen releases can range from 3-4 years of support but 3
is essentially guaranteed. Starting with Ubuntu 12.04 LTS, both The
Server and Desktop versions will receive 5 years support.
We are slightly shorter by around two years for Evergreen LTS
releases, as the next Evergreen release is also free of cost and
openSUSE upgrades do work rather well. I do not really see needing to
bump up to a five year Guarantee.
I would like to see openSUSE start using the Major.0 release again and
possibly move to this type of release cycle.
14.0 Evergreen Release
14.1 Developer/Tester/Enthusiast Release targeted to development of
the next Evergreen
14.2 Developer/Tester/Enthusiast Release targeted to development of
the next Evergreen
14.3 Developer/Tester/Enthusiast Release targeted to development of
the next Evergreen
15.0 Evergreen Release
(15.1 + 3 Months) = 14.0 Evergreen EOL
This would provide around a 13 month stabilizing for the Evergreen
release before users need to migrate over to it. This would make an
evergreen release receive support for just over four years, but
incorporating release delays it would put us close to five years.
Evergreen EOL = (5 Releases + 3 Months)
For the minor update releases they are currently supported for around
18 months (2 releases + 2 months). I would rather see these change to
(1 release + 4 months). Most users do not keep minor releases for 18
months. Keeping them maintained this long does use up resources. I
think we should treat the 3 minor update release's as the proving
ground developer/tester/enthusiast targeted releases to work up to the
new Evergreen release.
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Greg Freemyer
2014-09-24 14:58:57 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 10:06 AM, Timothy Butterworth
Post by Timothy Butterworth
I would like to see openSUSE start using the Major.0 release again and
possibly move to this type of release cycle.
14.0 Evergreen Release
14.1 Developer/Tester/Enthusiast Release targeted to development of
the next Evergreen
14.2 Developer/Tester/Enthusiast Release targeted to development of
the next Evergreen
14.3 Developer/Tester/Enthusiast Release targeted to development of
the next Evergreen
15.0 Evergreen Release
(15.1 + 3 Months) = 14.0 Evergreen EOL
This would provide around a 13 month stabilizing for the Evergreen
release before users need to migrate over to it. This would make an
evergreen release receive support for just over four years, but
incorporating release delays it would put us close to five years.
Evergreen EOL = (5 Releases + 3 Months)
Let me make sure I understand your proposal:

month 0: 14.0
month 8: 14.1
month 12: 14.0 End of normal support, start of Evergreen Support
month 16: 14.2
month 24: 14.3
month 32: 15.0
month 40: 15.1
month 43: 14.0 Evergreen EOL
month 44: 15.0 end of normal support, start of Evergreen Support

So the Evergreen team would have a one month break every 44 months.
During that month they would be preparing the process of moving to the
next 31 month Evergreen support cycle.

In the above, I'm not arguing for or against your proposal. I have no
maintainer activity for Evergreen. I just wanted to make sure I
understood the proposal.

==
With my opensuse maintainer hat on:

The Evergreen cycle described may or may not be acceptable to the
Evergreen team. The idea of openSUSE .0 releases only coming out
every 32 months and those being especially well tested in advance is
likely not going to fly. You should post that proposal on either the
-project or -factory mailing list.

As to your assumption that most users upgrade to a new release within
the first 4 months of its release is belied by the facts. There is a
blog post about the breakdown of users of the various versions. It is
very enlightening to review.

Scroll down to "INSTALLATIONS" at
https://lizards.opensuse.org/2013/08/23/more-on-statistics/

Remember 11.4 was an Evergreen release, so you can see there were
still a lot of 11.4, 12.1 and 12.2 users a few months after 12.3 came
out.

The real surprise in that for me is the number of 12.1 installations
still in place at that point. They were in the last days of support
(or it had already ended) and yet there was still a sizable number of
users.

In fact if you look at the older releases and try to find their end of
support date via looking at the graph, I think you will fail. I would
expect to see a significant migration away from a release either
shortly before or shortly after the end of support. We don't see
that.

Greg
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Timothy Butterworth
2014-09-24 15:10:42 UTC
Permalink
Greg,

Thank I will take a look at the site you sent out. The 12.x series is
still downloaded for users that want to use The Plasma Active repo
because it did not have a 13.1 option. That may explain some of these
if you can pull stats from The Plasma Active Repo you could compare
the two of course.

Tim
Post by Greg Freemyer
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 10:06 AM, Timothy Butterworth
Post by Timothy Butterworth
I would like to see openSUSE start using the Major.0 release again and
possibly move to this type of release cycle.
14.0 Evergreen Release
14.1 Developer/Tester/Enthusiast Release targeted to development of
the next Evergreen
14.2 Developer/Tester/Enthusiast Release targeted to development of
the next Evergreen
14.3 Developer/Tester/Enthusiast Release targeted to development of
the next Evergreen
15.0 Evergreen Release
(15.1 + 3 Months) = 14.0 Evergreen EOL
This would provide around a 13 month stabilizing for the Evergreen
release before users need to migrate over to it. This would make an
evergreen release receive support for just over four years, but
incorporating release delays it would put us close to five years.
Evergreen EOL = (5 Releases + 3 Months)
month 0: 14.0
month 8: 14.1
month 12: 14.0 End of normal support, start of Evergreen Support
month 16: 14.2
month 24: 14.3
month 32: 15.0
month 40: 15.1
month 43: 14.0 Evergreen EOL
month 44: 15.0 end of normal support, start of Evergreen Support
So the Evergreen team would have a one month break every 44 months.
During that month they would be preparing the process of moving to the
next 31 month Evergreen support cycle.
In the above, I'm not arguing for or against your proposal. I have no
maintainer activity for Evergreen. I just wanted to make sure I
understood the proposal.
==
The Evergreen cycle described may or may not be acceptable to the
Evergreen team. The idea of openSUSE .0 releases only coming out
every 32 months and those being especially well tested in advance is
likely not going to fly. You should post that proposal on either the
-project or -factory mailing list.
As to your assumption that most users upgrade to a new release within
the first 4 months of its release is belied by the facts. There is a
blog post about the breakdown of users of the various versions. It is
very enlightening to review.
Scroll down to "INSTALLATIONS" at
https://lizards.opensuse.org/2013/08/23/more-on-statistics/
Remember 11.4 was an Evergreen release, so you can see there were
still a lot of 11.4, 12.1 and 12.2 users a few months after 12.3 came
out.
The real surprise in that for me is the number of 12.1 installations
still in place at that point. They were in the last days of support
(or it had already ended) and yet there was still a sizable number of
users.
In fact if you look at the older releases and try to find their end of
support date via looking at the graph, I think you will fail. I would
expect to see a significant migration away from a release either
shortly before or shortly after the end of support. We don't see
that.
Greg
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Carlos E. R.
2014-09-24 16:12:56 UTC
Permalink
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Hash: SHA1
Post by Timothy Butterworth
openSUSE Evergreen releases can range from 3-4 years of support but
3 is essentially guaranteed. Starting with Ubuntu 12.04 LTS, both
The Server and Desktop versions will receive 5 years support.
I use Evergreen; I think that 3 years is very reasonable, and that 5
is excessive for an open release.

Why?

Because upgrading the machine at the end of the cycle will be close to
impossible. You have to install fresh, and on a long used machine
there will be lots of configurations and localizations to re-do.

As it is, upgrading from 11.4 to 13.1 is a bit difficult. In fact,
YaST wants to bail out and not do it.

On the other hand, a 4 year old operating system is obsolete. For
instance, you have to interact with other people, exchange documents,
etc, which you can not do because of the gap. Meaning that you have to
update applications to newer versions, which is something Evergreen
does not do if it can be avoided: much work, increasing with the gap.


IMO, beyond 3 years is the realm for paid versions and support contracts.


Yes, I know that many people have been using XP for a very long time.
Many still do. But it is a maintenance/support nightmare. XP was very
vulnerable, unless you really knew what you were doing.

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
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Per Jessen
2014-09-24 18:42:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos E. R.
Post by Timothy Butterworth
openSUSE Evergreen releases can range from 3-4 years of support but
3 is essentially guaranteed. Starting with Ubuntu 12.04 LTS, both
The Server and Desktop versions will receive 5 years support.
I use Evergreen; I think that 3 years is very reasonable, and that 5
is excessive for an open release.
Why?
Because upgrading the machine at the end of the cycle will be close to
impossible. You have to install fresh, and on a long used machine
there will be lots of configurations and localizations to re-do.
As it is, upgrading from 11.4 to 13.1 is a bit difficult. In fact,
YaST wants to bail out and not do it.
You could do it in steps though. Works very well.
Post by Carlos E. R.
On the other hand, a 4 year old operating system is obsolete.
I disagree. It may lack some of the latest functionality, but it's by
no means obsolete. (my desktop still on openSUSE 10.3 - I do have some
issues with openOffice interoperability now, but that's all).
Post by Carlos E. R.
For instance, you have to interact with other people, exchange
documents, etc, which you can not do because of the gap.
That is the only gap I have found so far. There are slight differences
in {open/libre}Office that make it difficult, yes.
Post by Carlos E. R.
Yes, I know that many people have been using XP for a very long time.
Many still do. But it is a maintenance/support nightmare.
We still use it privately for gaming - so far not much nightmare except
when manufacturers start cutting you off.
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http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland.
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John Andersen
2014-09-24 19:17:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Per Jessen
Post by Carlos E. R.
On the other hand, a 4 year old operating system is obsolete.
I disagree. It may lack some of the latest functionality, but it's by
no means obsolete. (my desktop still on openSUSE 10.3 - I do have some
issues with openOffice interoperability now, but that's all).
I have a server in the rack room that is still running 10.2 and I have no plans
to upgrade it any time soon.

But a desktop using 10.anything is a little masochistic if you ask me.

Its not the OS that is obsolete its the Desktop environment and applications.
As long as you can get those running to satisfaction there is no such
thing as obsolete.
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John Andersen
2014-09-24 19:18:33 UTC
Permalink
A bit of a thread-branch here...

To what extent does Microfocus control Opensuse?
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Marcus Meissner
2014-09-24 19:21:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Andersen
A bit of a thread-branch here...
To what extent does Microfocus control Opensuse?
The Microfocus merger has not even happened.

It will likely similar to the control The Attachmate Group does.

Ciao, Marcus
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Carlos E. R.
2014-09-24 22:56:31 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Per Jessen
Post by Carlos E. R.
As it is, upgrading from 11.4 to 13.1 is a bit difficult. In
fact, YaST wants to bail out and not do it.
You could do it in steps though. Works very well.
2 steps, means double work:

1 point against openSUSE for the Munich case :-P
Post by Per Jessen
Post by Carlos E. R.
On the other hand, a 4 year old operating system is obsolete.
I disagree. It may lack some of the latest functionality, but it's
by no means obsolete. (my desktop still on openSUSE 10.3 - I do
have some issues with openOffice interoperability now, but that's
all).
openOffice interoperability problem:

1 point against openSUSE for the Munich case :-P
Post by Per Jessen
Post by Carlos E. R.
Yes, I know that many people have been using XP for a very long
time. Many still do. But it is a maintenance/support nightmare.
We still use it privately for gaming - so far not much nightmare
except when manufacturers start cutting you off.
Private, aka internal usage, is no problem. Having to work in a
network of machines and people, with malware and targeted attacks, is
an issue.



I know that /we/ can use an operating system for 20 years. But /they/
can not. And should not. We are special people: geeks, IT
professionals, IT skilled amateurs... They are users, working for/at
a bureaucracy. Their training is different.

Maintaining a 4 year old Linux Desktop setup becomes problematic for
the IT personnel of almost any organization.

It is different for a Windows setup, because upgrading has an
important licensing cost, so they postpone it. When they finally do
it, the cost is probably much greater, because the effort needed
increases with the gap.

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
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Doug
2014-09-24 23:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos E. R.
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Post by Per Jessen
Post by Carlos E. R.
As it is, upgrading from 11.4 to 13.1 is a bit difficult. In
fact, YaST wants to bail out and not do it.
You could do it in steps though. Works very well.
1 point against openSUSE for the Munich case :-P
Post by Per Jessen
Post by Carlos E. R.
On the other hand, a 4 year old operating system is obsolete.
I disagree. It may lack some of the latest functionality, but it's
by no means obsolete. (my desktop still on openSUSE 10.3 - I do
have some issues with openOffice interoperability now, but that's
all).
1 point against openSUSE for the Munich case :-P
I thought I read that Munich has decided to go back to Windows.
Is it still up in the air? If Munich is still interested in running Linux,
then why don't they look at a rolling release system, like PCLOS, where
it is not necessary to completely reinstall the system every year or two?
I believe there are one or two other rolling release systems, also.

(I don't know what will happen to present systems like PCLOS while the
systemd ruckus is in progress. So far they have not been steam-rollered,
but it will be hard to keep up with applications if most of them come to
depend on systemd. I'm not smart enough to know if systemd can be
implemented without a new installation.)

--doug
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Timothy Butterworth
2014-09-25 00:05:09 UTC
Permalink
The City of Munich City Council has already publicly stated they are
still focusing all efforts on GNU/Linux and continued freedom and will
not support a move back to closed source Microsoft Windows.

Microsoft is trying to take them back over with its proposed 2016
German Headquarters migration to Munich which the Mayor and Deputy
mayor are kissing up to MS to try to make happen in order to pull in
tax dollars from MS. It seems Microsoft will stop at nothing to put an
end to MiLux even if it costs them quite a bit of money.

I would hate to let Microsoft or Canonical get a stronghold there.
openSUSE has many more capabilities than Ubuntu particularly since
they are not using Unity.

The MiLux build has already changed over to LO from AOO and they are
currently planning to launch another round of LO development to add in
more functionality.

I personally have no issue with a Evergreen release every 4 releases
approx once every 32 months. I was trying to think how to make
openSUSE more attractive for Small Medium Businesses who do not want
to perform OS upgrades every two or three years. If we did do this it
would only mean having two Evergreen releases under support at a time
one starting the maintenance period and one beginning to end the
maintenance period.

Obviously Windows is supported for 10 years but the initial release is
not and Service Packs become required after a period of time. If
anyone has a method of advertising openSUSE against Redmonds support
cycle please share it.

I did not realize until today how many users are actually running old
openSUSE releases that are not even under maintenance any more that is
kind of a scary though. I am curious as to the reasons why they are
doing this? If it is a technological issue preventing them from
upgrading, if they are doing this to hold onto KDE 3.5.x etc.

Saying 5 years is too long for a openSUSE Evergreen is slightly being
contradicted by the number of old versions still in active use. It
would be good if a official survey could be put together to collect
all the reasons why.

Zypper dup does work well for upgrading but you do have to replace all
the repos with an updated repo. If you have a lot of OBS repos and
external repos then it does become more and more burdensome. The only
way to get rid of those issues is to get as much of the external and
OBS repos included into the OSS repo of the new release as possible to
eliminate their need. Unless a user has them to track the upstream
stable then they simply need to adjust those repos.

I have had mixed experiences performing distribution upgrades in the
past. The only time I found it to be easy is when only the shipping
repo's were in use but that is a rather useless system with no codecs.
Post by Doug
Post by Carlos E. R.
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Post by Per Jessen
Post by Carlos E. R.
As it is, upgrading from 11.4 to 13.1 is a bit difficult. In
fact, YaST wants to bail out and not do it.
You could do it in steps though. Works very well.
1 point against openSUSE for the Munich case :-P
Post by Per Jessen
Post by Carlos E. R.
On the other hand, a 4 year old operating system is obsolete.
I disagree. It may lack some of the latest functionality, but it's
by no means obsolete. (my desktop still on openSUSE 10.3 - I do
have some issues with openOffice interoperability now, but that's
all).
1 point against openSUSE for the Munich case :-P
I thought I read that Munich has decided to go back to Windows.
Is it still up in the air? If Munich is still interested in running Linux,
then why don't they look at a rolling release system, like PCLOS, where
it is not necessary to completely reinstall the system every year or two?
I believe there are one or two other rolling release systems, also.
(I don't know what will happen to present systems like PCLOS while the
systemd ruckus is in progress. So far they have not been steam-rollered,
but it will be hard to keep up with applications if most of them come to
depend on systemd. I'm not smart enough to know if systemd can be
implemented without a new installation.)
--doug
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John Andersen
2014-09-25 00:45:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timothy Butterworth
I did not realize until today how many users are actually running old
openSUSE releases that are not even under maintenance any more that is
kind of a scary though. I am curious as to the reasons why they are
doing this?
Your fears are largely unfounded.

For a servers not exposed to the net there is very little to worry about.
For servers that don't host websites and don't allow password based outside
login of any kind, there is even less to worry about.


The only adjustment I've made in a long time was restricting access to my
NTP server recently. After doing that I peeked at my iptables and found
I was already blocking outside access to that.

This idea that something has to be under maintenance is something learned
learned in the microsoft world, or in risk avoidance school taught by
bean counters.
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Timothy Butterworth
2014-09-25 01:47:12 UTC
Permalink
I understand your opinions but once a defect is found and an exploit
is created and made available in a automated scripted form you are
still vulnerable to it. GNU/Linux is not some kind of solid steel box
with no cracks in it all software has defects that will be found
eventually and a large portion with have automated exploit kits
produced for them.

The longer you wait to plug holes by not upgrading the more holes
start to show up. The biggest advantage to FLOSS Community distros is
the low upgrade price of free.

I imagine you have more than one NTP server on site or have a external
configurd as a backup, I would seriously consider jumping up to 13.1
particularly if you are only running ntpd on it!

Also just because a server is only available on an Internal Network
also does not make it impervious to attacks either because any machine
on the network that can accesss that resouce can be used to launch an
attack on it if it has been compromised.

Obviously you could build your own kernel and install the latest
maintenance releases from the upstream into /opt but still letting you
system turn into a giant attack target of known exploitable
vulnerabilities seems crazy to me.

Maleware in the forms of viruses, trojans and spyware may not be in
large abundance on GNU/Linux but nessus and metasploit certainly have
a large collection of known defects to choose from to own a unmainted
system. You may want to install the latest version of Nessus on it and
run a quick privilidged scan just to see how much red does show up.

You could very well have heart bleed, the bash vulnerability that was
patched this week as well as a slew of kernel defects that can be used
for privilidge escalation.

You can harden GNU/Linux very well but not upgrading your software to
fix known issues defeats the entire purpose of hardening to begin
with.

Obviously your systems are not mine. I do not know what they are
supporting so the risk is of course yours to take but I would sign up
for the US Cert weekly aggregate list and take a look through that for
a month and possibly rethink your position.
Post by John Andersen
Post by Timothy Butterworth
I did not realize until today how many users are actually running old
openSUSE releases that are not even under maintenance any more that is
kind of a scary though. I am curious as to the reasons why they are
doing this?
Your fears are largely unfounded.
For a servers not exposed to the net there is very little to worry about.
For servers that don't host websites and don't allow password based outside
login of any kind, there is even less to worry about.
The only adjustment I've made in a long time was restricting access to my
NTP server recently. After doing that I peeked at my iptables and found
I was already blocking outside access to that.
This idea that something has to be under maintenance is something learned
learned in the microsoft world, or in risk avoidance school taught by
bean counters.
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John Andersen
2014-09-25 02:01:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timothy Butterworth
You could very well have heart bleed, the bash vulnerability that was
patched this week as well as a slew of kernel defects that can be used
for privilidge escalation.
I was born in the morning Tim.
But not THIS morning.

Just because I don't jump to current releases, and expose my systems to
all the bugs therein, does not mean I don't apply patches, or test for vulnerabilities.

Heartbleed? Really? Did you read a word I wrote?
My in-house server is too old to have been affected by heartbleed.
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Timothy Butterworth
2014-09-25 02:12:02 UTC
Permalink
I am just saying that it seems like a big risk. I do understand the
desire to use older software with well tested features and not take on
a lot of unknown.
Post by John Andersen
Post by Timothy Butterworth
You could very well have heart bleed, the bash vulnerability that was
patched this week as well as a slew of kernel defects that can be used
for privilidge escalation.
I was born in the morning Tim.
But not THIS morning.
Just because I don't jump to current releases, and expose my systems to
all the bugs therein, does not mean I don't apply patches, or test for vulnerabilities.
Heartbleed? Really? Did you read a word I wrote?
My in-house server is too old to have been affected by heartbleed.
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Per Jessen
2014-09-25 06:32:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timothy Butterworth
I did not realize until today how many users are actually running old
openSUSE releases that are not even under maintenance any more that is
kind of a scary though. I am curious as to the reasons why they are
doing this? If it is a technological issue preventing them from
upgrading, if they are doing this to hold onto KDE 3.5.x etc.
For desktops in the office, we have been deliberately holding back to
stay on KDE3 for now. We're slowly introducing 13.1 with KDE4, and at
some point we will have to bite the bullet.

For servers, it's a matter of avoiding unnecessary change and effort. If
an upgrade brings no discernable/necessary benefits, why bother?
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Timothy Butterworth
2014-09-26 18:18:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Per Jessen
Post by Timothy Butterworth
I did not realize until today how many users are actually running old
openSUSE releases that are not even under maintenance any more that is
kind of a scary though. I am curious as to the reasons why they are
doing this? If it is a technological issue preventing them from
upgrading, if they are doing this to hold onto KDE 3.5.x etc.
For desktops in the office, we have been deliberately holding back to
stay on KDE3 for now. We're slowly introducing 13.1 with KDE4, and at
some point we will have to bite the bullet.
KDE 4 has gotten a whole lot better since the KDE 4.2-4 time frame. I
used it the whole way though but I can see why people would want to
hold back on such a large development moving target until it reached a
stable maturity.

You may want to take a look at Trinity Desktop if you really want to
continue to stay with KDE 3.5.x until Plasma 2 goes mainstream and is
recommended for daily user functions. https://www.trinitydesktop.org/

Trinity has Repos for openSUSE 11.4, 12.2, 12.3 and 13.1.

It would be nice if we could phase out all KDE 3 from openSUSE and
replace it with Trinity Desktop possibly in openSUSE 13.3. I do not
know how many others would also like to have this option made
available. Hopefully we can just talk this group into packaging the
openSUSE versions into OBS or just migrating the entire project to OBS
since it can package for multiple different distros.
Post by Per Jessen
For servers, it's a matter of avoiding unnecessary change and effort. If
an upgrade brings no discernable/necessary benefits, why bother?
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Carlos E. R.
2014-09-26 18:39:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timothy Butterworth
It would be nice if we could phase out all KDE 3 from openSUSE and
replace it with Trinity Desktop possibly in openSUSE 13.3.
Little misunderstanding here.

There can be no "replacing". The people keeping KDE3 on openSUSE are a
group of volunteers that want precisely to do just that, keep and
maintain kde 3 in openSUSE. openSUSE simply accepts the offer, and they
get some help and advise from other maintainers.

Having Trinity just needs the same: a group of volunteers /adding/ it to
the distribution in OBS. Once there, it can be added to the main
distribution body.
--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
Felix Miata
2014-09-27 03:39:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos E. R.
Post by Timothy Butterworth
It would be nice if we could phase out all KDE 3 from openSUSE and
replace it with Trinity Desktop possibly in openSUSE 13.3.
Little misunderstanding here.
There can be no "replacing". The people keeping KDE3 on openSUSE are a
group of volunteers that want precisely to do just that, keep and
maintain kde 3 in openSUSE. openSUSE simply accepts the offer, and they
get some help and advise from other maintainers.
Having Trinity just needs the same: a group of volunteers /adding/ it to
the distribution in OBS. Once there, it can be added to the main
distribution body.
I don't think it can be that simple. Take a read of
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kde3/2014-08/msg00033.html if you missed
it or don't remember it.
--
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words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

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Timothy Butterworth
2014-09-27 17:10:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Felix Miata
Post by Carlos E. R.
Post by Timothy Butterworth
It would be nice if we could phase out all KDE 3 from openSUSE and
replace it with Trinity Desktop possibly in openSUSE 13.3.
Little misunderstanding here.
There can be no "replacing". The people keeping KDE3 on openSUSE are a
group of volunteers that want precisely to do just that, keep and
maintain kde 3 in openSUSE. openSUSE simply accepts the offer, and they
get some help and advise from other maintainers.
Having Trinity just needs the same: a group of volunteers /adding/ it to
the distribution in OBS. Once there, it can be added to the main
distribution body.
I don't think it can be that simple. Take a read of
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kde3/2014-08/msg00033.html if you missed
it or don't remember it.
--
Thanks I was not aware that this was already discussed. I was also not
aware that openSUSE has a team that is still maintaining KDE3.
Post by Felix Miata
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
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Carlos E. R.
2014-09-27 19:38:07 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Felix Miata
I don't think it can be that simple. Take a read of
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kde3/2014-08/msg00033.html if
you missed it or don't remember it.
Hum. No, I'm not subscribed to that list.

And I had forgotten/not noticed that trinity and kde3 conflict. TDE is
a fork of KDE3 (so says wikipedia).

So there are two independent groups maintaining separate kde3 "forks"?
Maybe they should join efforts. But I can not really give an educated
opinion on this. I'll sit back and listen.

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
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Felix Miata
2014-09-27 21:19:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos E. R.
Post by Felix Miata
I don't think it can be that simple. Take a read of
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kde3/2014-08/msg00033.html if
you missed it or don't remember it.
Hum. No, I'm not subscribed to that list.
And I had forgotten/not noticed that trinity and kde3 conflict. TDE is
a fork of KDE3 (so says wikipedia).
It is, originally and still mostly by users of (Debian) distros that, unlike
openSUSE, completely replaced KDE3 with KDE4, which they did while KDE4 was
young.
Post by Carlos E. R.
So there are two independent groups maintaining separate kde3 "forks"?
Maybe they should join efforts.
I think if you look through enough of David Rankin's opensuse-kde3 posts
you'll see there are good reasons for keeping the two distict.

Development in one is often transferable to the other.
Post by Carlos E. R.
But I can not really give an educated opinion on this. I'll sit back and listen.
Probably little or nothing to be said what wouldn't be a rehash of something
covered somewhere within that whole thread. If really interested, maybe do
some reading in the archives of the Trinity mailing lists.
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words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

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Per Jessen
2014-09-26 19:52:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timothy Butterworth
Post by Per Jessen
Post by Timothy Butterworth
I did not realize until today how many users are actually running
old openSUSE releases that are not even under maintenance any more
that is kind of a scary though. I am curious as to the reasons why
they are doing this? If it is a technological issue preventing them
from upgrading, if they are doing this to hold onto KDE 3.5.x etc.
For desktops in the office, we have been deliberately holding back to
stay on KDE3 for now. We're slowly introducing 13.1 with KDE4, and
at some point we will have to bite the bullet.
KDE 4 has gotten a whole lot better since the KDE 4.2-4 time frame. I
used it the whole way though but I can see why people would want to
hold back on such a large development moving target until it reached a
stable maturity.
We will be going KDE4, that's a definite. We just didn't want to do it
overnight - training costs etc. Introducing it slowly, starting with
people who are more inclined/open towards new stuff means a much
smoother migration.
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John Andersen
2014-09-25 00:26:58 UTC
Permalink
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I know that /we/ can use an operating system for 20 years. But /they/ can not. And should not. We are special people: geeks, IT
professionals, IT skilled amateurs... They are users, working for/at a bureaucracy. Their training is different.
This is very true for the most part.

But consider:

My wife learned every thing she knows about computer by osmosis, she's
very careful about what she clicks, and Nigerian Princes.
Having run a business herself for many years, she had employees get
machines infected every once in a while till she switched her company to
Linux. After that she never had a problem.

Linux by itself provides so much protection from exploits and malware
that you probably CAN run old systems with naive users. One
sysadmin can keep a whole herd of sheep fairly well guarded.



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Carlos E. R.
2014-09-25 11:33:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Andersen
Linux by itself provides so much protection from exploits and malware
that you probably CAN run old systems with naive users. One
sysadmin can keep a whole herd of sheep fairly well guarded.
Maybe. Probably.

But if I'm the person in charge of a bunch of computers in a
organization, like a city, and something does happen, that somebody can
blame on the software not being updated, it is my arse which would be burnt.

If the machines are updated, or if I'm mandated not to update, then it
is somebody else's arse.

Simple as that.
--
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Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
Per Jessen
2014-09-25 11:55:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos E. R.
Post by John Andersen
Linux by itself provides so much protection from exploits and malware
that you probably CAN run old systems with naive users. One
sysadmin can keep a whole herd of sheep fairly well guarded.
Maybe. Probably.
But if I'm the person in charge of a bunch of computers in a
organization, like a city, and something does happen, that somebody
can blame on the software not being updated, it is my arse which would
be burnt.
If you're in charge, it's up to you to a) chose how to do your job and
b) take responsibility when things go wrong. How you chose to secure
your organisation is not really relevant, with or without updates.
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Carlos E. R.
2014-09-26 18:45:45 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Per Jessen
Post by Carlos E. R.
Maybe. Probably.
But if I'm the person in charge of a bunch of computers in a
organization, like a city, and something does happen, that
somebody can blame on the software not being updated, it is my
arse which would be burnt.
If you're in charge, it's up to you to a) chose how to do your job
and b) take responsibility when things go wrong. How you chose to
secure your organisation is not really relevant, with or without
updates.
Where I live, if you follow /the rules/ you are pretty safe. If you
take your own decisions, you are not. No matter how correct your
decisions may be.

(unsafe in this context equals fire)

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
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